Leadership, Love and Landscape – a conversation with Roger Mortlock, CEO, CPRE, the countryside charity

Welcome and welcome back to Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend, the podcast that helps you to grow confidence, care and courage in your leadership.

I created this series of candid conversations for leaders to share their inspirational personal leadership stories, weaving together the threads of their life - the people, places and experiences that have shaped them and made them the leader that they are today.

They offer valuable insights and rich experience to help and inspire you on your own unique leadership journey. If you are not already please do subscribe to the podcast, review and share it. Thank you!

About This Episode

In this episode I am delighted to be in conversation with Roger Mortlock, Chief Executive Officer, CPRE, the countryside charity. 

Together we delve into what it means to lead:

• A heritage organisation, being open
• In a federated structure, being humble
• A campaigning organisation, being brave

ROGER’S THREE ENCOURAGEMENTS TO LEADERS

1. Do it your way - learn from the leaders who help you grow as a person as well as a leader
2. Find and honour that which gives you joy at work, what you love - give yourself space to flourish as well as face into the challenge
3. Keep making the time and space to imagine the future

To contact Roger

LinkedIn: Roger Mortlock

Website:  www.cpre.org.uk


About Roger Mortlock

I first met Roger some twenty years ago and have had the privilege of partnering with him, and the teams he has led and been part of over the years.  

To listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend go to my website, www.annitownend.com

A big thank you to my support team at the Conscious Marketing Group for helping me with all the marketing of the podcast, to Coco O’Brien for the wonderful intro and outro music, for the lovely design, and for the excellent editing and sound production.

To contact me Anni Townend do email me on anni@annitownend.com visit my website www.annitownend.com, subscribe to my newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn.  I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

To listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend go to my website, www.annitownend.com

A big thank you to my support team at the Conscious Marketing Group for helping me with all the marketing of the podcast, to Coco O’Brien for the wonderful intro and outro music, for the lovely design, and for the excellent editing and sound production.

To contact me Anni Townend do email me on anni@annitownend.com visit my website www.annitownend.com, subscribe to my newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn. I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

Transcript

Anni Townend

Hello and welcome to leaders in conversation. Welcome back to those of you who subscribe already to the podcast that helps you to grow confidence, care and courage in your leadership.

In this episode, I am absolutely delighted to be in conversation with Roger Mortlock, Chief Executive of the countryside charity CPRE. I've known Roger for some years now and together we've worked with a number of teams in a number of different organisations. CPRE is a heritage organisation and in this episode, we talk about what it means to lead a heritage organisation. We discuss and explore what is a federated structure, and what the implications are for leading and the values and the beliefs that are important to bring. And finally, we discuss what it means to be a leader in a campaigning organisation. 

Welcome, Roger. Roger, I'm delighted to be in conversation with you and for you to be a guest on leaders in conversation. 

Roger Mortlock

Me too, Anni. It's nice to connect again, after many years of working together. It's brilliant to see you.

Anni Townend

I know I was endeavouring to remember the first time that we met. Do you remember where we met those moons ago?

Roger Mortlock 

I think it was with the incredible late, sadly late, but very great, Peter Melchett, who was at that time Policy Director at the Soil Association where I was one of the senior team and we met in a really difficult period for the organisation to unify the leadership team. And as a result, I have called on you for support in every job I've had since, so, thank you for that. I think both of us were big fans of Peter who sadly died a few years ago, but was perhaps one of the country's really inspirational campaigners. Many people will remember him being arrested in a hazmat suit in for GM crops, but had been a labour cabinet minister had been a leader of Greenpeace but latterly kind of inspirational, Farmer campaigner around food and children's food and a joy to work with and to learn from.

Anni Townend 

Absolutely I, like you, feel very privileged to have worked with him and to have continued to work with you. And indeed, Peter became a dear friend to us both, our having worked with him. He's missed by many. There is a memorial lecture to him that happens every year in November, which I think is a testament to his long lasting legacy.

I also, Roger, have very fond memories of working with the Soil Association and remember, very powerfully starting the day, the team coaching day, in silence, which was then a practice at the Soil Association, in honour of the Quaker influence the Society of Friends influence I seem to remember, we were sitting in a circle in a room on a farm, if I'm remembering correctly, and we just sat in silence as a way of being present to the moment and present to each other.

Roger Mortlock

They would do that before board meetings and larger meetings as well. I mean, only for a minute or two, such a piece of culture, a great moment to centre yourself and balance before you went into the work meeting. I think it's very helpful. I also got you out to a yurt once as well.

Anni Townend

I do remember the yurt in the forest. That was brilliant. I love being outdoors, and love working outdoors. They're very much part of the way in which I work incorporating the outdoors being in nature, and also really encouraging more moments of silence during a day in a meeting in which people can reflect and recenter and have some thinking time, I've noticed that a lot of the senior leaders that I work with, go from meeting to meeting and or don't get the time to think quietly in silence together. 

Roger Mortlock

It's a very brave thing to do. I was interviewing for some new directors here. And actually one of the people we appointed, held the space so brilliantly. So when we were interviewing her, she just took sometimes 20 seconds to gather her thoughts and rather than thinking she wasn't thinking on her feet, I actually thought the opposite. I thought how brave to, in that situation, hold the space and deliberately give yourself some time to give your best answer. And to really read the room I thought it was a real sign of leadership maturity, rather than traditionally, I think it's seen as a weakness. There's plenty of times, especially in campaigning organisations, where you need to be responding quite quickly. And obviously, if you're doing media work, that's important. But I also think that when you don't have to do it, you don't need to do it, you should celebrate the silence.

Anni Townend 

Yeah. And really use it and give that silence and take it and make the most of it. And I think embracing diversity is really important, by way of giving people who need time to think before they speak time to do that. And also, to acknowledge the real listening to ourselves and to each other. And you said, then that your colleague, reading the room, and then responding to it. And I think that's a really great skill of excellent leadership is to read the room and respond to it something that you do very well, Roger.

Roger Mortlock

I do think one of the advantages it gives you one tool to be open to the diversity of where people are coming from, both from the various identities they're bringing to the room, but also in terms of what their preferred way of working is. So I think certainly over my career, I've had the privilege to work with a lot of people who are neurodiverse and I think that their brain is wired in a different way to mine and how can I accommodate and encourage them to give the best of themselves, but you've got to give yourself the time to do that. And I think that's one of the places where silence and stopping and pause are so very helpful.

Anni Townend

100% and movement, that's another encouragements reflecting diversity of perspective, that if it's possible, to move around, ideally, to stand up to walk, if you're able, focusing on the body, standing up sitting down, sitting somewhere differently when we're in person, and particularly if we're meeting virtually, perhaps standing up, and sometimes sitting down.

Roger Mortlock

I love your idea of the side by side walking in conversation for, a purpose of turning over some issues in a work context, I think I really worked through that a little bit in my last job where there was a country park on our doorstep, being in the middle of Central London again, I'm gonna have to find a way to do it. Because I found it such a useful tool, there was something about the positioning of being side by side rather than opposite, I think is so critical.

Anni Townend

I think so. I think often people have the best conversations when they are side by side. And indeed, walking side by side, I think there's something about walking towards something, even if you're walking in one direction, and you come back the same direction, it will feel different, you will notice different things. And the sense of moving through something is really significant in that as well.

So let us move on to you, Roger. I'd love to hear more about who you are, and who were the people, the places and the experiences that have shaped you and made you who you are today. And such a wonderful leader that you are

Roger Mortlock

I'm gonna dive in on places because it's completely appropriate for where I've ended up, but also because I think places have really shaped me. My dad was a musician in the army and my mum then married another serviceman. So our childhood was brilliantly stable in terms of, my mom's care for us, but moving schools quite frequently, and I don't think I was naturally suited to that, I think two things about that it really built a resilience around that change piece, I think when you've had that early experience, it really gives you some confidence that you can deal with some tough stuff. But I think the other thing for me is that when I did settle, when I came to be in control of where I was living myself, the idea of place became hugely important to me and in a sense, it's kind of guided where I go in my career. 

There's an amazing Simon Sharma book, I think I read in the mid 90s, called Landscape and Memory but which looks at those connections that people have. How the human story is carved by people's relationship with the natural world. And I think it did get me thinking at the time, you know, I started my career working in comms and policy work. And in a sense, I had this amazing ability to kind of shift sectors that you can in those roles where you dive deep into, you know, I worked at the Royal Shakespeare Company, and then in the Royal College of Nursing, so  quite different sectors, but kind of felt like really at home in them. But there comes a point where you sort of have to settle on what's your gig in terms of the issues that fire you. There was something about that settling around place, which I really loved. You know, I really wanted to feel a connection with the community but also to a landscape. And also, I began to realise the value of the natural world. Weirdly it was at the RSC where I did a workshop with Richard Maybee the famous naturalist who did a thing around Shakespeare in nature. And, working in Stratford was the first time I'd moved out of London to have more access to nature. And I think in a way that job was oddly one that kind of set me on the path to being fascinated and committed to securing a future around the natural world. I went to the Soil Association, and it's unfolded since then, but the connection with place remains important. And, although I'm working back in London, you know, home is still the Stroud valleys in Gloucestershire, which are this remarkable connection of people and this remarkable landscape that has been both, this incredible part of our industrial heritage, but also had been a very peopled landscape, but has also been untouched by a lot of modern agriculture. So feels like kind of a world apart. It's a great place to return to and to recover, and in this role to remember what we're campaigning for, but it does, I think, having had a childhood, where we're moving around was the sort of MO, you know, to have a bigger sense of place, I think, is really important to me. Clearly, people have been a big driver for me, as well. But I think, you know, the job at the RSC was really about establishing a sense of place in Stratford and kind of thinking about how we could really change that place, you know, the work I did at Wildlife trusts, and at this sort of succession was all about place. And CPRE is the campaign for the protection of rural england, it's essentially about what our relationship with place landscapes and land use. And one of the few places where all those different uses of land come together. So I've definitely found my spiritual home here.

Anni Townend

Wonderful. I want to pick up on that wonderful title of the book, you mentioned Landscape and Memory, and your love of place. What were the places that when you look back, you hold very dear in your memory? And what was it about them?

Roger Mortlock 

There's another great book called Edgelands actually, that came out a few years ago that looks at the spaces at the edge of space. I'm fascinated by what people call the peri urban you know, that kind of the bit where the countryside becomes town or city becomes countryside. Sometimes we don't respect those places. But, to come back to your question, I think, when I think about some of the childhood memories that are most vibrant, they are often in those edge lands, wherever we were on some army base or in Germany or back in England, you know, it's that kind of curiosity as kids you can have just taking off in your bikes to kind of explore what felt like vast wilderness on your doorstep. And in a way I think that if we've got any chance of reconnecting people to nature, those spaces on their doorstep, whether that be you know, parks and wild places close to them, but also the countryside that they can most access. When we talk about access to the countryside, we often think about our amazing national parks and areas that you live in, right on the doorstep of an amazing set of landscapes but for lots of people. It's not that it's much closer to home and it is whatever is close to home, a lot of people don't grow up with a set of OS maps. I certainly didn't, and for many communities that, you know, our countryside is, is not a welcoming place. And so we've got to work hard on that. I'm pleased to be committed to doing that here. But it's been something I've been committed to and other bits of my life as well. But I think that there is something about that experience of growing up in a family that wasn't necessarily kind of mad keen on nature or mad keen on landscapes and access to the countryside. It's kind of interesting, I hold that dear because I think, you know, as a family, we did do that in the end, you know, but wasn't in our DNA to do so.

Anni Townend 

I love the sound of the book title Edgelands because I often talk about growth happening at the edges and, and the concept of the edge, which you're talking about there, the peri urban edge, the edge between things. And in my work, I'm often working in a city somewhere where there isn't necessarily access to walking in nature. And I don't want that to stop anybody from appreciating the nature that is around us, by way of noticing things that may otherwise not be noticed, the things that grow at the edges of pavements, for example and the edges on people's balconies if they have one, and just how much even one pot of something growing inside or outside something green that is growing can be very helpful.

Roger Mortlock

I found some great posters. When I visited one of our CPRE branches in London actually, of late there were adverts for accessing the Greenbelt, you know, and then often, in thinking about the Greenbelt quite a lot. We think about the Greenbelt about what it's stopping, or what it prevents at the moment, and actually, these posters are real. You know, they're from the 30s and 40s. They're about, like, here's how you get to Epping Forest, you know, here's how you can access the countryside on your doorstep. And they're really aspirational. They're about stuff that's much, much closer to home. And I wonder if there's time for some kind of advertising guru to help us to think about how we make that connection, much more vibrant with the countryside next door, rather than it feeling like you've got to go miles into a special place that's called a National Park in order to enjoy nature.

Anni Townend 

Well, I think the concept of starting close to home starting close in is a great one whereby, starting with what is near to us and around us. So in your role, Roger as Chief Exec of the countryside charity, it is a heritage organisation, and you've mentioned heritage, by way of discovering these old posters, as well. What does it mean to lead a heritage organisation?

Roger Mortlock

I'm sort of fascinated by this, just because I've worked in a couple of organisations,with long history and you know, CPRE is about to be 100. And I think there's some huge bonuses in that. There's a rich history, you know, part of CPREs heritage is around, being part of the push for our national parks for the Greenbelt for actually for most of our legislation around town and country planning. So there's so much to celebrate and some incredible people who held views that feel remarkably kind of contemporary as well in their founding vision, but at the same time, there's something I think that you just need to be wary about heritage organisations. So on one level, you're a steward it's not about you, it's about how do you take those ideas and kind of make them relevant, but it's that switch around, how do you make them relevant? And how can you be a guardian of the journey towards respecting the past, but also thinking about how that relevance sits in 21st century England, and what's fascinating for me is that, you know, the early days of CPRE, a lot of its quite establishment figures, tapping on the shoulder of other establishment figures, to create influence, and thankfully, the world doesn't work like that anymore. So it's less about, I think, what we're here to do in the world, which I think can remain a constant, but it's more about how to do that. 

I think many of the conversations are as relevant to us now, but we do need to work hard as heritage organisations to do what Fiona Reynolds called when she was running the National Trust, having your arms open, you know, to other organisations, I like that arms open approach. CPRE is not big, but we do need to be open. And we do need to recognise that heritage gives us a kind of a long standing track record that needs to appreciate change, and needs to be open to change as well. We need to recognise that it's not attractive to everybody, you know we've got to recognise that actually, there are many people who care deeply about our issues, I'm always conscious that in every community, there's a kind of a small group of incredible volunteers working on saving their local green space or looking after or are trying to save their area from an unwanted development in the wrong place. But those people might not see CPRE as their natural home. So we've got to kind of reach out and have our arms open to those, and also to communities who just don't see us as part of their world. For some communities, we've got to work a lot harder to be relevant. And I think we need to put the legwork into that if we're going to stay relevant for the future.

Anni Townend

And you're well placed for that by the sound of it, Roger, in terms of having moved around quite a lot as a child. And whilst you said you weren't perhaps naturally suited to that way of life, you learn a lot from it about being open, and having a community and being open to community. And that being very important to you. I love Fiona Reynolds' phrase keeping your arms open and being open to different people, different communities, and perhaps bringing people together.

Roger Mortlock

So, I think the other thing for me about the heritage organisation is being super respectful of the people who are powering the organisation you're in. So, that in terms of talking about going in new directions and being focused on change, you've got to take people with you. I mean, you won't take everybody with you. But you know, the focus should be on taking people with you. How can we work with the countryside? How can we make sure that everybody feels welcome there? That actually, if we can take a network of local CPRE branches with us on that journey, that's hugely powerful, it doesn't mean you don't have to be bold, it doesn't mean you can't set the vision really high. But you've got to respect and start where people are. Where the emotion is, and I think, you know, the sessions I've done with you, Anni, everyone has really unpacked that. Really spending the time to find out what's current for them, what's the driver understanding where they are, I think can really help with that. That sense of resolution or growth for both, you can learn on both sides. So, you've got to be listening both to the world in terms of having your arms open, and listening to new stakeholders, but also taking the ones you have with you.

Anni Townend

You've mentioned that taking people on a journey, different local CPREs on a journey, that very much speaks to being a federated structure. And for some listeners, they may not even know what a federated structure is. What is it like for you leading it?

Roger Mortlock 

I think is leading in a federated structure. So federated structures are much more common than people think. So basically, it's a kind of group of organisations with separate charitable constitutions who come together around a common idea and a common set of principles. And they are as varied as the Federation's that exist. My last experience was at the wildlife trusts where cooperation and engagement were key. And one of the things that Federation is great for is that you've got to do everything by influence, you've got to take everybody with you on the journey, it takes what is good practice and leadership into a structural form. But the benefits of organisations with a real, connection with the communities they serve and a real understanding of their communities and a real kind of interest that's solely focused on those places. And you put them in a kind of structure where they can absolutely focus on that, but also focus on a collective effort, then I think, if you get that right, and it's not, it's not always easy, then I think, I think that that's incredible.

I learned a lot from Craig Bennett in his time as the national CEO for the wildlife trusts, where he had a real kind of sense of the importance of coming together. And I think that's critical. The trouble with Federation's is that you can become quite disparate. So you've got to really focus on bringing together people all the time. So I think you've got to do it through listening. I mean, I'm fascinated by the stories of what our branches are delivering and I'm fascinated by the people. So in a way, that feels like the starting point. It's back to the heritage organisation point. You've got to accept some of the differences sometimes and know when to push back and to challenge and know when to give territory yourself, because, you know, you may have gone wrong. And again, the starting where people are is really important. But also there's that tapping into love, in many federated charities where there's quite a lot of staff hours, a lot of very, very volunteer driven, and if their people are giving their time, you know, it's because they love something. When they're unhappy, it's because you're challenging something deeper than just their day job. You know, it's kind of it's something that really needs unpicking. So I think, you know, tapping into their love, starting where they are. But also having the responsibility that you've got to take the collective on a journey, I think is important.

Anni Townend

And is that were being humble and bringing a sort of humbleness you described leading in, rather than leading a organisation that even though you are in the national office of this federated structure, you are leading in, there's something for you around leading within, and your love of what you do and love of the people who do what they do be that in the national office, or in a more local setting is very humbling for you.

Roger Mortlock

it's not quite servant leadership, because I think it's kind of got a different quality to it. I think one of the things I feel and every time I do a piece of media work, or I'm representing the collective to I don't know, politicians, or whatever it might be, I kind of feel like I've got a lot of jiminy crickets on my shoulder. And that can be a bit deafening sometimes, because you're trying to balance those views. So you've got to both be humble, but also be brave, you know. So I think it comes into the campaigning space. I've had 10 years out of campaigning, and it's a muscle I have enjoyed relearning how to use. 

Anni Townend 

And what have you learned in the re-learning of leading within a federated structure, but leading a campaigning organisation that requires you to be that both and of being humble within and being brave in your communication?

Roger Mortlock

I think three things are in play, it's much better if you feel fired up to be brave, so you have to kind of believe it. There's something about knowing you can win. And the second one, I think Peter Melchett taught me this, you've got to have the public on your side, or at least feel that you've got the moral high ground in the situation. And I think, as campaigners that's important, and I think for me, sometimes the fight can be quite compelling, but you need to be focused on the outcomes, you know, you need to see how good in the world comes from the fight. I have really noticed how actually the silence has been quite important to finding time to settle to be brave I found it quite tricky just to launch into stuff without having some time to sort of really get my head straight on why it's important. So stopping to do that, you know, why does this matter? What are we trying to do? What will the world look like? Why is this an intervention that we feel passionately about? And I think at that stage, doing that work on where other people are coming from, in their perspective, understanding where they are. But sometimes where they are is something that you want to challenge. That's where the brave stuff comes from. I think you need a bit of prep time to do that well. I need to understand the arguments on both sides in order to be a good advocate for what I believe.

Anni Townend 

As we come to the end of our conversation, what else would you encourage leaders to think about in their leadership around being open, being humble and being brave?

Roger Mortlock 

There's something about doing it your way. I've inherited some jobs from some great people who I really admired, and then got into those jobs and going like I can't do that. And it's, it's not that I can't do it is that I can't do it the way they did it. So I think there's something about really, really learning from leaders who help you grow, like as a person as well as a leader. It's much easier to operate from a space where you feel like you. And I think for young leaders, I feel like they're trying to emulate some stuff that actually, they've got their own leadership skills, it's just they need to tap into them. I think it's really critical. A job is a job, and you've got to do the things, but what's the 10% of that job, that is like quintessentially you that it would not be you without you, it would be a different job if someone else did it. And of course, you got to get the job done. But I think that honouring of that piece that gives you joy, can help you with the bravery and help you with the humility as well. Sometimes the leadership journey for me has been about facing into stuff I found quite hard to do. I spent the first few years of being a budget manager with a spreadsheet upside down, you know, it's like, kind of, and now I feel like kind of confident about numbers, but I have really had to learn hard, I really had to put that extra work in that you do when you're working outside your comfort zone. But at the same time, I think sometimes I've gone too far that way, you know, like I'm working all the time in the place, that is tough for me. And actually just to really relish and enjoy that, that gives you joy give yourself a break and enjoy the bit that you love as well as challenging yourself on the bits that are harder. One of the bits I love is about that creating the future thinking about the future, but you need time for that. And you know, whether you do that best with other people on your own or walk side by side with a colleague, you know, I think that making time to imagine the future to sort of keep checking in on where you're heading that feels to me like the piece of of leadership that is key for me and then also it's about making time on the how do we work together to get better, feels like so essential to me.

Anni Townend

Thank you very much for a wonderful conversation for sharing more of the 10% of you, which I would definitely dial up and say is a much bigger percentage, by way of all that you bring to your leadership. You've spoken very powerfully about caring about landscape and how landscape matters to you in all that you do. Caring about that edge, meeting people at that edge, being open, being humble, being brave. Thank you very much for being open, humble and brave in our conversation today.

Roger Mortlock

Thanks Anni. It has been great.

Anni Townend 

You're really welcome. How best for people to connect with you, Roger to find out more about you to have a conversation with you. And indeed, to join the countryside charity CPRE if they would like to find out more and be part of this wonderful organisation.

Roger Mortlock

Yeah, no, great, thanks any well, they're CPRE websites easy to find. We're on all the social media platforms. So do follow us if you're interested in what we're up to. But for me, you can follow me on LinkedIn and X, formerly Twitter. And you know, really great to hear from people.

Anni Townend

Lovely. Well, thank you so much for our conversation today. And thank you to you the listener, if you'd like to listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend do go to my website, annitownend.com. 

As well as thanking you, Roger, I'd like to thank my support team, which is the Conscious Marketing Group and Coco O'Brien for their wonderful help in producing the podcast in marketing it and helping me make it a great listen. 

If you'd like to be in touch with me, please get in touch via my website, and also email me on anni@annitownend.com. Thank you again to you, Roger. Thank you to you the listener. I look forward to hearing from you.