Be The Leadership Nudge – a conversation with Emma Harris Finance Director, M&S Food, Property and Retail

Welcome and welcome back to Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend, the podcast that helps you to grow confidence, care and courage in your leadership.

I created this series of candid conversations for leaders to share their inspirational personal leadership stories, weaving together the threads of their life - the people, places and experiences that have shaped them and made them the leader that they are today. 

Together we delve into what they really care about, their values and beliefs, their passion and purpose and how they live and weave these through their leadership every day, in all that they do. 

They offer valuable insights and rich experience to help and inspire you on your own unique leadership journey. If you are not already please do subscribe to the podcast, review and share it. Thank you!

About This Episode

In this episode I am delighted to be in conversation with Emma Harris, Finance Director, M&S Food, Property and Retail. Together we delve into: 

• How to bring alignment in corporate world
• The importance of amplifying your strengths
• Staying authentic in more challenging environments

Emma's three key encouragements to leaders:

1. Stay true to yourself and your values
2. Find an environment where you can thrive…doesn’t have to be easy, but you can bring value through your leadership
3. Amplify your strengths, that’s where you’ll get the highest ROI

About Emma Harris

Emma is a senior finance leader, balancing living in Yorkshire with her partner and 2 boys, and working her London-based finance director role. Spending over 20 years in retail, leading finance teams, Emma is passionate about driving shareholder value for the organisation through commercial curiosity, leading great teams and her own self development. 

To connect, follow and find out more about Emma:

LinkedIn: Emma Harris

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www.annitownend.com/podcast

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I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

Transcript

Anni Townend: Welcome and welcome back to Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend, the podcast that helps you to grow care, confidence and courage in your leadership. I created this series of candid conversations for leaders to share their unique personal leadership stories with you to help you grow your leadership.

Together we explore the people, places and experiences that have shaped them, their values, their beliefs, the future that they're leading for. If you haven't already, please do subscribe, share and review the podcast. Thank you for listening. 

Today, I'm delighted to be in conversation with Emma Harris, Finance Director, M&S Food, Property and Retail. 

Together we delve into:

• how to bring alignment in the corporate world, 
• the importance of amplifying your strengths, 
• and finally, the importance of staying authentic in more challenging environments. 

Emma, welcome. I'm delighted to be in conversation with you today. 

Emma Harris: Hi, Anni. Thank you for having me. 

Anni Townend: I'm thrilled. We've known each other for a number of years, and I know that this is a very busy time of year for you as finance director. Thank you for making the time for our conversation today.

I'd love to start by asking you about you, who are the people, the places and experiences that have defined you and made you who you are today? 

Emma Harris: I'll start at the end and then go back to the beginning. So as my current role, I'm finance director of Marks and Spencer.

So I've been in finance for about 22, 23 years now, always in retail, which I also really enjoy. I've got two boys and my husband Ricky, and we live in Yorkshire, but I currently work down in London two to three days a week as well. So we have to juggle and we make that work.

And really, I think that is who I am. I work in the corporate world, really enjoy making a difference, really enjoy helping the business. Drive value, but also I really enjoy being a mom and a partner to my husband. So when I think back, well how have I arrived at that?

One of the things I'm really proud of is I do come from a really working class background. We've chatted about this, haven't we, quite a bit before. And I actually had quite a straightforward childhood, I think, from a school, a friendship group. So I academically always did pretty well.

I found some of the classic subjects, like maths and science, quite easy. So I didn't have too much bumps in my kind of learning journey at school, but I was always diligent and I'm curious. I like to learn. And I also had a really fairly straightforward friendship group. So luckily, I didn't get caught up in kind bullying or anything like that.

Social media wasn't what it was. So I feel grateful that I, kind of, grew up in that generation but also there were some challenges when I grew up that definitely have defined me. My mom brought me and my two sisters up largely on her own. So there's definitely like a sisterhood that goes on.

I'm the middle of three girls. We're all very different. But all got similarities as well in terms of our value system. So those relationships are really important to me. And no matter what I've done, and I've been lucky enough to be given lots of challenges in terms of opportunities for different jobs in different parts of the country, different parts of the world.

I've always anchored on being at home, really. And that's interesting because the friends and family around me wouldn't see me as, like I don't have to speak to my mom every day, and I'm not really connected to that friends in the local area, but it's an anchor for me that's always been quite important, especially as we've had kids, so that they're near their grandparents and that's not something I had.

I didn't really have any close grandparent relationships growing up. So again, something that is really important for the boys, that they stay in and around grandparents. My mum brought me up largely on her own with my two sisters and actually we had quite a lot of financial hardship as well and there was definitely a period, there was a wobble when probably I think I was about nine or ten, where actually we ended up in a position where we were facing being homeless and we had to move to an area that my mum really didn't want to.

We didn't want to. It had a reputation in the local area of who would want to live there. We didn't live there for very long because she managed to dig her way out of that situation. But that definitely defined me because one of my mum's values is there's always somebody worse off.

So no matter what adversity we would have, she would always keep going. That's definitely a big part of me. And then unfortunately, when I was a teenager, we lost my dad as well. And that, again has defined me. I think academically probably got a bit more of his DNA there. My mum's super smart too, but he was smart.

And he also pushed us. And even though he was removed because my parents were separated. I remember, when I got my GCSEs, I got eight or nine A's and a B and he's like ‘What happened to the B?’ So he’s always had that in him and obviously that has stayed with me and I try not to get too pulled by that, but it's somewhere deep inside me, like approve, achieve, do well.

But as I say, unfortunately he passed away, so that strengthened that sisterhood, it's my mum, it's my sisters. And I've just always been driven by working hard. I went to university, but casually went into university. I didn't have this North star or go and do this, go and do this career.

I didn't really have anyone around me advising me about, what corporate world would look like. I didn't think I'd find myself in a corporate world, but I just did what I enjoyed. And so I did business studies, ended up majoring a little bit into maths and the finance side of it. But back to this point of working hard, I always had a job.

Actually, whilst I was at uni, I had two jobs. I worked for about 25 to 30 hours in a retail shop in a shopping center near us in Meadowhall. I also work behind a bar. So I always feel like my studies was my third job because I was doing these other two things and studying. I managed to come out of that still with a good degree.

So I got a first class degree and I didn't look for jobs in my final year because I wanted to just get my degree. And there was no one kind of saying to me, oh, that's not a good idea, Emma, because, my mum had not been to university, didn't have any friends and family around, really, that had been to university.

So I didn't muddle my way. It's probably a bit too casual on it, but I just was following my instincts of what I would do, but without too much advice. And I thought the best thing to do was to get the best degree I could and worry about getting a job after because I also had income. I worked in a shoe shop and they loved me.

I used to go down to the head office, helping with buying decisions, their training and development. So I had in my mind, Oh, maybe I'll just go and work for them. And I met my husband to be at the time actually, and we worked together. I just got my degree and we were in the shopping center that we both worked in after work and we bumped into my lecturer and we were chatting to him and he's like ‘Oh, what are you doing, Emma?’

And I said, ‘Oh I've not quite decided’ But for now, I'm working for these guys full time. And I was running the store. I knew it's not what I was going to do forever, but I knew if I stayed there, I'd probably be like an area manager within three or five years and he just looked at my husband, Ricky, and looked at me and he's like ‘if you do that, I might as well not be a lecturer. You know you've been one of my students that, you've grasped it so quickly, you're so energized by what we do, you've got such an interest for it and if you don't use it, what am I doing?’ And I remember that evening, we got our food shopping, headed home. And my husband said to me, ‘Yeah, what are you doing? You know, you've not been to university to become a retail manager, to become an area manager, you need to use your finance skills’.

So I looked and thought well I'm going to match that up with retail. And finance, I joined a graduate scheme. I stayed to the point of the anchor being in Yorkshire. I went to Asda, joined their graduate scheme and then did 16 years there and never didn't really looked back. I just landed well, got good support and sponsorship.

My working class heritage wasn't a barrier there because it's a Yorkshire based retailer. Cause I actually feel like it could be a barrier if I'd come to London. Not fully, but I might've found some of that judgment that comes with that trickier at a younger age, but now when I bump into it, I don't find it trickier, I'm proud of it. I believe in, women doing well, but actually what I believe in more than that is social mobility.

I really believe in big teams whether it's being the out of the finance team, I've spent a bit of time at Boots or where I am now, we've always got about a hundred people that are always doing the transactional finance, paying the invoices, doing the accounting.

And I've always felt that somewhere in amongst them is a future leader, but they've just not been shown that path. So yeah I think that's probably quite a long answer to a short question. 

Anni Townend: It's a small question with a big answer and how fortuitous that you and Ricky met the lecturer when you did, who, it sounds as if they gave you the kind of nudge that you didn't have anywhere else and particularly didn't have after the passing of your father and the bumping into this lecturer at that moment in time was the thing that encouraged you to go for the graduate scheme to look further, to think bigger?

Emma Harris: Yeah, I actually do think without him, that wouldn't have happened. I'm sure other things would have happened and it would have turned, but I do think that was quite an important decision like nudge really. 

Anni Townend: It's a reminder isn't it to us all that how a conversation in which we are well met and we're met where we're at and the person helps us shine a light on ourselves and knowing you as I do in a work capacity.

I know that you. Are passionate about social mobility and that you absolutely do shine a light on people and help them to find their light and look to develop them and help them to develop themselves. 

Emma Harris: Yeah, definitely. And I do it because it's the right thing to do, but it also does give me energy because I love to see people being right.

How could I be that nudge? Could I be that same nudge to somebody? Somebody come to talk to me the other week is one of our store managers. And she's wanting to do something bigger and she's letting imposter syndrome get in the way and all those other things.

And I was chatting a bit about my career story. She came up to me, she's like ‘That's just what I needed. You're right. We need to be bolder. We need to be braver. We need to do it’ And I'm like, ‘Yes, we do’. And so I'm like let's do it together. Come and get some more time with me because, you know, just to think you can make that difference to somebody to achieve something that they didn't actually believe was possible I just think it's really rewarding.

Anni Townend: I agree with you. And I often hear myself say when I'm working with teams that I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if people hadn't believed in me, when I myself was in particular lacking in belief. It was the belief of other people in me that helped me to reach for more, to realize my potential along the way when they said you can do it and I'll help you and I love the phrase being a nudge for somebody else and that we never know it might be something quite small said in passing that is a nudge for somebody else that sets them on a different path.

Emma Harris:  Yeah, definitely. 

Anni Townend: One of our themes today, Emma, is that of bringing alignment in the corporate world, a world that you have worked in for a long time, starting in ASDA. And before you answer that question, I'm smiling because I think about your working in retail and the fact that you've been working in retail for so long. 

In the shoe shop and then you mentioned working behind the bar along the way while you were studying, but your love of retail the corporate retail world, what do you mean by alignment in that world?

Emma Harris: It's actually quite simple. So the good thing is it's not corporate finance.

We're not buying derivatives. We're not hedging. We're just buying and selling. So it's quite simple, and so I never lose sight of that, both in its concept of, it's simple, and actually that is what I enjoy. I just enjoy that shopping experience and what's gone into choosing that product, why organizations show up as they do. I just enjoyed that. So that sits underneath, but what you realize when you get into those organizations, the bigger they become.

And because of the complexity now of online change, disruption, It's easy to lose sight of the buying and selling and decisions just get really complicated. So you end up in matrix structures. Our business, we've got a really strong clothing and home business and a really strong food business and they need to keep their identities. But once we open a shop, they show up together and the customer sees this as one. So we have some functions that are really clearly in food, and then clothing and home and some that kind of work together. So you get a little bit more of matrix. And so it's really important that we make decisions that are in the best interest of the overall company and I think finance are uniquely placed to actually help make those decisions and trade offs. And it's definitely one that I think has been one of my strengths as I've grown through my career, probably didn't realize early on. It just came naturally through that.

It's simple. We're buying and selling. And now I know it's one of the things that I bring to the conversation. In my world the way I do it the most is I think about us from what's right for the shareholder. That's my role. How are we going to create value, but also what's right for customers and what's right for colleagues.

And I often find if there's an easy answer, we've already found it, so I don't find myself in many sessions or meetings where we go, it's obvious, do this, because if it was, we were all heading there, so it's normally when it's a trickier one, and one of those things is being traded off, and I will say to my teams, we can't just be black and white about it. They are a little bit more complex decisions and we need to be guided by those three stakeholders, largely with the shareholders, customers and colleagues, sometimes there's other people and how do we find the optimum answer within that?

So I was thinking about this because I'm quite values driven and I'll say let's do the right thing. Then I have to catch myself and remember the right thing. Can be framed in what's right for you but someone else's version of the right thing is keeping me in a job. So you have to make sure that you do it in the context of, customers, colleagues and shareholders and just trade those off really and remind people in the room. Back to in corporate world, how do you frame that? You remind them in the room that, If you're coming in to solve the problem, start the meeting with what we're trying to do today is find a solution to this problem and actually let's all align that here's the outcome we want to achieve for customers, colleagues and shareholders, and then let's thrash it out and let's have diversity in the room, different opinions, different perspectives 

Anni Townend: I love the simplicity of we buy and we sell and what you're describing there is remembering that's what we do and that we are giving the customer, the shareholder, the stakeholders, employees, colleagues, the best experience.

Emma Harris: I have to remind accountants not to pursue perfection. Because in finance, quite a lot of our people grow up in finance by coming through the audit background and checks and balances. And that has to be perfection. That has to be accurate. And we get audited on our accounts and we have to stick to the rules, but that sticking to the rules, black and white perfection can actually then be a barrier when you're in the more partnering parts of finance where you're trying to help them problem solve and create solutions to it can be a barrier if you’re pursuing perfection. So you have to also be pragmatic and again I think that being part of my journey in retail because you know it is reasonably simple let's be pragmatic let's cut through some of this complex you know finance accounting speak.

Anni Townend: Great and I think that speaks to one of your strengths. I think you are very pragmatic and just how you spoke about leaving university and getting your degree and taking a very pragmatic approach that you already had a job and then you were up for whatever next and looking at what was ahead.

And then the fortuitous meeting that we've spoken about, but a very pragmatic approach to getting things done. And one of our themes is about amplifying your strengths, something that some of us don't find easy to do. I think that's one of yours. What other strengths do you amplify in the world of work and the world of being a mum and a partner to Ricky as well?

Emma Harris: I start outside of work. I think one of them is I don't know if it's a strength or if it's just an attribute part of my DNA, but I've always believed in this sense of being the best you can be. And that's been a driver for me. It's not been, Oh, I want to be the finance director, I want to be the CFO. It's just, I want to be the best I can be. There's definitely been a tenacity in that and a restlessness of not just settling for the best I can be is just this actually, and I'm happy with, I've always got a bit of restlessness, but with the boys in particular, they're at school.

They both play a lot of football as well. They're quite competitive and hungry about that. But I always talk to them, particularly my eldest who went through trials and more that kind of academy lifestyle with football. I was like, are you just being the best you can be? Be true to yourself.

And I do think that is one of my strengths because that's what's kept me hungry. It's not an ambition out of status or financially. It's just, I want to be the best that I can be. And if I look across or look up and I feel like I can do more and I want to get after that. So that's definitely one of them and back to your point about pragmatism.

I think again in my DNA. I'm naturally quite analytical. I like to understand why things work like they do, understand what's the root cause of why we can't make a decision here what's the root cause of  Why this is a classic problem that for, however long we've been alive in retail, it always seems to be an issue and therefore back to pragmatism, unless we identify the root cause, we might just need to live with the fact this will always be an issue.

So I like to figure out what's going on and why and then use that diagnostic and that root cause to help put the business on course. And then my last one I would say is making complicated things simple and it comes back to that how it might show up as being there for pragmatic, but in our organization we have 60, 000 plus people and we're a business that's you know wanting to transform ourselves and we've got a lot of work to do because we're old we've been around for 140 years this year and as a result we've got lots of culture, systems, stories that you've got to move forward. And everyone's hung on to that the bit that they enjoy and like the most.

So communication is really important. You need to tell people why and we're heading over here and can you follow? And I think in communication, particularly again in retail, it's keeping it very simple. And from a finance perspective, I'll quite often give performance updates, but I do that starting with the customer and how are we trading? And then what do I need people to do to improve the P&L? It's not complicated language about debits, credits, growth, bips. That doesn't work for 60, 000 people. You need to just explain, why are we here and how are we doing? So I think that communicating with simplicity has also been a key part of my toolkit.

Anni Townend: It's a great strength and it's one, another of my guests speaks to, and I think you and she would have a very interesting conversation.

Carolyn Youdall at Specsavers. One of her key messages to listeners and leaders is to drive simplicity. And, again, she's working like you in retail, albeit coming at it from a different perspective, but the narrative, the why we're here, here's how, you know, we need to get on with it and here's what we need to do. The buying and selling the simplicity of it is so, so important. I'll put you and she in touch. 

Emma Harris: I'd love that. I was thinking about this last night when I was having a think about our conversation, and whenever I do anything like this, it's actually going back to what we've just said about nudges and conversation, because almost everything I am is being shaped and defined by someone else doing it and you just crafting off that person being a role model. I remember a leader who I worked for who was amazing at lots of stuff.

And she always said when communicating, this little checklist of:

• do people, are they aligned as a result of your conversation? So when you're communicating, do people come away with a sense of alignment? We know where we're heading. 
• The second one is, do they know their part? And do they know the part they need to play in where we're heading?
• And then the third one is, have you done that with a sense of, enthusiasm and energy? And each, actually, if you tick off those three things, and when I'm communicating to bigger groups, have I left people aligned? Do they know their part? And does it have a sense of excitement or energy?

Then you've done the job. And I think sometimes we don't think about the outcome, we think about Oh, there's 101 things I could tell people here about the process or the P&L or what I do in my world or everything that's going on in M& S or everything that's going in the world. But really it's more, what's the purpose?

Do they come away aligned to that purpose? Are they really clear that the part they can play and are they up for it? Are they energized? So I have that little checklist in my head most times actually. But again, it was a nudge. because somebody shared that little bit of wisdom with me.

I was like, that's a good one. I'm putting that in my toolkit. Looking up to others and learning from other people, and that comes in that ‘be the best you can be’ mindset of being striving and being curious. You're picking bits up all the time. 

Anni Townend: And helping others to be the best they can be.

I'm really glad that you shared those three things because I think they're at the heart of inspiring and engaging and motivating people and most importantly, helping them to know their part in it and to align whatever it is that they're doing with that bigger purpose and then to realize it.

And I think the more enthusiasm, belief that we show in what it is that we're doing, the more encouraging it is of other people to have a go to know that they matter really, and that what they do matters as well. 

And you've spoken about doing the right thing and the importance of social mobility and being the best that you can be. How do you do this, stay authentic? For example, when your values are challenged by perhaps those of the organization or when you're asked to do or have been asked to do something that clashes with your values and with you being you, your authentic self, what you stand for.

Emma Harris: Yeah. What I would say is, I can’t imagine having a guest on a podcast that wouldn't be like, ‘Oh, that's never happened to me’ Because we're all different and we've all got different value systems. And particularly in a high performing culture, people can use different ways to drive that. So in a previous life not where I am now, I stumbled on this, I'd say the first time in a more difficult way where I was in a kind of a leadership role, not quite as senior as I am now, but close to the executive team, and there's a couple of the leaders have had quite a different orientation in terms of, are we in it for the organization or are we in it for how it's also going to help me progress and I just found that quite difficult because it was quite a strong values organization.

And I believed in that as a North star, it fitted my values and the organization was like that. So when we got some leaders that were a little bit different, I actually found it quite hard. And I found it hard because I actually stumbled on this first point of it was one of my kind of learnings at the end of I'm butting up against, I don't think I can be authentic in this environment, and I wrestled with that for quite a while. Personally, it took quite a bit of my energy. And then I realized, and I've seen this situation now a couple of times over, and I've got more practice at it and got clearer in my own head about what am I prepared to tolerate and what am I not prepared to tolerate?

And for me, it comes back to if you can still be your authentic self in that environment and you can lead your teams and lead down in the way you want to and you're aligned with that environment of the goal. Let's just say the goal is to get growth or, so we're all aligned on the goal.

The how we do it might be a bit different, but I can still do the how my way, but I do have to flex a little bit of my style across or upwards to communicate in a way that those leaders are then as long as I can do that I've found a way through it. That's not sapped my energy or led me to not believe I can be authentic.

So I have to think we're going for the right answer, but just respectful that there's different styles in doing that. I’ve had one situation where I didn't feel like we were going for the right answer for shareholders, and I found a way around that, I found a way of being careful, using emotional intelligence, stepped around it to make sure that issue that I could see was shown up in the organization.

So it wasn't just me looking at it and going, that doesn't feel right. Other people could look at it and decide, does that feel right or not? And that helped me through that. The other thing I would say, I think about this one quite a lot is you can't just reject an environment straight away to be like, I can't thrive here. It's not me. I don't know if this comes from the tenacity and a will to win. I look at it and go I can be part of the change. I can be authentically me and show a different way. And that actually does drive me. And I think we are a world full of individual beliefs, systems, and, If you've got an organization, say for my current organization, the amount of people we've got in our organization, there's lots of diversity of style and how people are motivated.

And we want a diverse set of leaders because people will find role models and belief in different leaders. So again, that gets me to a place of, I can thrive here because I can be effective at my outcomes and stay authentic to me. Even if my version of that is a bit different to the person next door to me.

Anni Townend: And that's very much key to creating an inclusive culture, isn't it? One in which diverse, Values and beliefs are held whilst sharing the same bigger purpose, the bigger goal. And I did actually look up the values of Marks and Spencers and one of them being, or the ethos is that of being an inclusive culture, embracing difference and the values of inspiration, Innovation, integrity, and keeping in touch.

So I guess that's about communication, isn't it? 

Emma Harris: Yeah, definitely. And one of the biggest campaigns we do to do that at the minute is we have a program called Closer to Customers, where all our senior team spend seven days a year out in store at different points across the year, and sometimes it might be just at our busiest point.

Everyone loves Marks and Spencer at Christmas. We are really busy. So this year I was out, finding trolleys in the car park and managing abandoned baskets. So it just keeps it real. And it's great. But I love being back in shops anyway. And then other times through the year, we do it where we're landing, big pieces of change so we can see how it lands.

But it's something that our leadership are really passionate about. But again, it just connects that piece of we're gonna help solve problems. 'cause we're at the kind of grassroots of the business. We are listening to our customers and we're listening to our colleagues and that will help us make better decisions.

So that's a really key part of the M&S DNA 

Anni Townend: Thanks Emma. And as we draw our conversation to a close, what are your three key encouragements to leaders and to people who are listening?

Emma Harris: We've touched on them a little bit. So I think this point of, really stay true to yourself and values. To do that, you have to understand what your values are. And they're usually the things that you might get triggered on but stay true to those. Because I actually feel, the reason why I give that advice is, I think it's quite hard not to stay true to them for very long. It's not much fun.

So as long as you understand what they are and you understand if they're triggered, how to get it back, but stay true to those. 

The next one, again, we have touched on a bit in saying, find an environment where you can thrive. You can do your best work. You can make a difference. The bit that I added on to that, it doesn't mean to say that has to be an easy environment where there's nothing that needs to change and you don't have to challenge norms. You can still thrive in an environment that might be a little bit different, but it's a unique leadership you bring to make that difference.

But if you're not in an environment where you can't bring your unique skills and you can't show up your best, again, over the long term, It's probably not going to be the right place for you. 'cause it won't be rewarding. 

And then the last one, again, we have touched on this but definitely amplify your strengths. And I found this more and more so in the last kind of 10 years of my career, you really realize it's those things that are actually making the difference and to put the finance brain to it and to be a bit more objective on it. What I'd actually say is you get the highest return on investment from amplifying your strengths.

You need to be watching out for those gaps and your development areas and bringing new skills on board. But the biggest return you will get, I think, in the workplace is through amplifying your strengths. 

Anni Townend: Wonderful. Thank you, Emma. And I love the finance spin, the return on investment, know your strengths, amplify them.

Emma Harris: Had to get that one in. 

Anni Townend: Yeah. I'm glad you did. And I have one final question to get in, which is we've had a conversation today. What's the conversation that you're going to have and with whom following on from our conversation today?

Emma Harris: You did give me a bit of a tip off, only like an hour ago, and I was like, oh, interesting. But as usual through our conversation, I stumbled on that myself because it comes back to that point about the nudge. Some of your listeners might think, oh, they were talking about the nudge before. We weren't, were we? It's come up, and there's a couple of people that I feel I could help them with a bit of a nudge, who, and I'm not just guessing, they've made exchanges with me, had little conversations, and there's a colleague who I'm going to just reach out and invest a bit more time in to, talk about what I feel their potential is and my belief in them and do they need a nudge to believe a bit bigger?

But then there's also somebody in our family network too, who's at a life stage where they're thinking about leaving school, college. What are they going to do? And I feel that I have a bit more responsibility to nudge there too. Not to push at all, but just to be, the world's big, these all the things that are going on, you've got energy, you're young, be brave, there's maybe a bit more. So, yeah.

Anni Townend: Lovely. Have great conversations and be the nudge. Thank you, Emma. Thank you very much. How best for people to connect with you? Are people able to connect with you who might like to follow up, who are inspired by your nudge and would like to keep in touch in some way? 

Emma Harris: I would say follow me on LinkedIn and drop me a message on LinkedIn. I will definitely reply if you drop me a message. I'm not very good at that in terms of not, prioritizing my own time and not being helpful. I like to be kind and give time. Drop me a message and we'll connect.

Anni Townend: Thank you so much. And thank you for sharing that information so that people can stay in touch with you. 

To listeners, a huge thank you for listening to Emma and I in conversation, a huge thank you also to my support team at the Conscious Marketing Group and to Coco O'Brien, for her help in producing the podcast for creating the intro and outro music, To contact me via my website, annitownend.com via LinkedIn.

Do email me and like Emma, I will message you back. 

Thank you for listening. And thank you again, Emma, for a lovely conversation and for your nudge.