Understanding Ourselves and Understanding Others: A Leadership Perspective – a conversation with John Edwards, Director General, Regions Group at the Department for Education

About This Episode

In this episode I am delighted to be in conversation with John Edwards, Director General, Regions Group, at the Department for Education, UK. 

John and I were invited to be in conversation by and for the annual Transform Applied Leadership Summit, held virtually this year on 8th March 2024. The title of our conversation Understanding Ourselves and Understanding Others - a leadership perspective is the title of the summit.

(For listeners who don’t know about Transform Applied Leadership I share their details at the end of the podcast, along with ways in which you can connect with John.)

John and I delve together into: 

1. How becoming a leader is all about finding your own leadership 
2. The alignment between who we are, how we lead and why we lead, and what it means to be an authentic leader
3. The importance of being aware of individual and collective leadership behaviour and the impact that it has on others 
4. 360 degree leadership and measuring our leadership achievements through the successes of others

John’s three key encouragements for leaders looking to grow their leadership identity, build greater confidence and understanding in their leadership behaviours.

1. We never need to create our leadership approach, or copy it from others - we just need to find it, observe it and look after it
2. We don’t need to worry about making time for DOING leadership, only for THINKING ABOUT leadership - it’s not an extra job, it’s how we do the job we have
3. Listen to others but trust your instincts - there is no right answer

How to connect with John Edwards on LinkedIn

The Transform Applied Leadership Summit happens annually and is designed to stimulate new ways of thinking and behaving in our leadership. Delegates come from education and reflect upon their own leadership, have conversations with other leaders, and to hear speakers from different backgrounds.

To find out more about the Summit, and Leadership Applied the leadership study and research; the leadership experts and about the Future Engage Deliver approach to leadership developed by Steve Radcliffe do go to the website:

https://www.transformapplied.co.uk/leadership-applied

Contact Anni Townend  
anni@annitownend.com
www.annitownend.com

About John Edwards

Having started out as a secondary school maths teacher, I’ve had the privilege to work in schools, local government and now central government - but still, when asked what I do, the word ‘teacher’ is the first word that comes to mind.  11 years in three schools was followed by 14 years working in three different local authorities, responsible for the full range of education and skills functions in largely urban settings.  I now head up the Department for Education’s Regions Group, covering improvement, intervention and capacity-building for schools, children’s social care and SEND through 9 regional teams.

I am proud to have grown up and lived all my life in the north - for more than 20 years in Sheffield where my wife and I both work and where my kids have grown up.  We have one rule in our house: there’s always time for a hug.  When neither working nor hugging, I love watching cricket, riding my bike and walking on the beach or in the hills.

Transcript

Anni Townend

Welcome, and welcome back to Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend the podcast that helps you to grow care, confidence and courage in your leadership. 

I created this series of candid conversations for leaders to share their personal leadership stories, to inspire and encourage you on your own unique leadership journey. 

Together, we delve into the people, places and experiences that have shaped them, and made them who they are today. If you haven't already, please do subscribe, share, and review the podcast. Thank you for listening. 

Today's episode is with John Edwards, Director General Regions Group at the Department for Education. And we're delighted to have been invited for this very special conversation for the transform, Applied Leadership Summit, the title of which is Understanding Ourselves and Understanding Others, a leadership perspective. 

John and I delve into the theme of the conference through four key themes, 

How becoming a leader is all about finding your own leadership, it's about becoming more of yourself, of who you are, 

And the alignment between who you are, how we lead, and why we lead to being an authentic leader. 

The importance of individual and collective leadership, and the importance of impact on others, on those around us. 

And finally, on 360 degree leadership, and how we can measure our leadership achievements through the success of others. 

John, welcome, and welcome to those of you who are listening and watching the podcast at the same time. 

John Edwards

Anni, thank you very much. And I'm absolutely delighted to be here and have the opportunity to talk about leadership. 

Anni Townend

Likewise, John, in particular, I'm looking forward to talking about your leadership, which is where I'd like to start by delving into your first theme of becoming a leader and finding your own leadership, and in particular, who are the people, places and experiences that have shaped you, and made you who you are today? 

John Edward

It's a long question, isn't it, but one that goes back a long way as well. And I think for me, the the starting point, and that I sometimes talk to people about is that I don't feel I was born a leader.

And I feel that the journey for me to get to now a senior leadership position has been one in which I've had to become a leader through my own discovery, and through a range of different roles, and in many ways, to start it off, I began my career as a school teacher and I was a secondary mathematics teacher in three different schools around Yorkshire, and in a way began my professional life, as I saw it as an expert. I was a mathematician, I could teach the subjects and for a while, I think my early thinking on leadership was more about control. And it was more about making sure that I was able to lead a classroom of young people. To be able to hear this wonderful knowledge and understanding I had of this fantastic subject of maths and I think it was, first of all, working with a brilliant head of department in my very first school called Margaret who showed me that teaching is ultimately about leading young people. She was a disciplinarian, as you might call it nowadays. She had At the very highest standards, but she also invested a huge amount of time and energy in young people. And I saw in her that she was not just acting as a specialist for those young people that she was, she was leading them, she was enabling them and supporting them to grow and develop their own understanding of the subject, but also their own leadership of their own learning and their own self discipline. And I think that and the way she supported me in the early days of my career probably shaped that starting point for me, I'm beginning to see myself not as an expert, but as a leader of children and young people. 

Anni Townend

What was it about teaching? And was it your own experience of having been at school that drew you to teaching to becoming a teacher and then becoming a leader? With the guidance and support of Margaret? What was it in the first place? 

John Edwards

So I think to some extent, it was a collection of bits of advice, from other people, including one of my tutors at university who said, You know what, you're alright at maths, but I think you're really good at explaining it. And I think that that helped. But also that I've always enjoyed, perhaps not realised that communicating with people when I know the context, and I feel that there's a really strong sort of relationship at the heart of that. And a couple of people said to me, you should try teaching John. And I was really grateful to them, because that started me off on a professional journey, which has been a real gift for me. And that I still think of myself as a teacher, I think that's a really important part of who I am as well as what I do.

Anni Townend

You've mentioned Yorkshire, so I'm going to refer to you as a lad. Were you a lad who enjoyed school? 

John Edwards

So it's a good question. I enjoyed aspects of school.

I did quite a bit of music at school I enjoyed. I was not a leader, I wasn't captain of any teams, I wasn't representative of any classes. I didn't sit on any student committees or anything of that sort. I think I took a path of relatively least resistance through through school, but there were aspects I enjoyed. But I wouldn't say it's the best years, nor, indeed, university were the best years. I think it took me to work with other people in the way that I did through teaching for me to begin to develop a more of a sense of my own identity, and I don't think I'd strongly had that previously. And it was through teaching and working and supporting first groups of young people, and then groups of staff. And then gradually on through my career that I think I've grown in myself, as well as as a leader.

Anni Townend

You've mentioned people who shaped you and in that way found your way. 

I talk about our values and beliefs running through us like a stick of rock. And when I say that, I think of values and beliefs running through me like a stick of Morecambe rock in Lancashire, not actually in Yorkshire, but that they're with you, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. And in a way, that leads us into our second question about becoming an authentic leader, and being really grounded in our values and beliefs. So how would you describe your values and beliefs 

John Edwards

Just to be clear Scarborough rock for me, just to clear a really important point on the beautiful east coast. I think the starting point for me, is the belief that probably actually came from my dad more than anyone else is that of service. And that isn't service in necessarily a structural sense, but that the purpose of my life and the purpose of his life, I know, was to be of help of assistance to others. And in my dad's case, not to ask too much help others as well, but he was very much of that era.

Whether you're leading whether you are part of a team, whatever role you're in, it's not about you, it's about the role that you can play, whether it be for the wider society, the team of people, you're in the place you were in, my dad was a school governor for many years. Whatever it might be, your role is one of service. And I'm always conscious that can sound a bit pious, if I'm honest. But for me, it remains important that the way I think of my job in any role, whether it is as parent, I’m a parent to fantastic kids, well they’re not kids, grownups. It's always for whatever I do to make it such that those those around me in whatever role have that bit better an opportunity to go on and succeed or that bit better an opportunity to be what they want to be and so for me service is a really important value that sits at the heart of it. 

Another one for me is one of openness and humility. And sometimes those can feel in slight tension with each other. Because sometimes you being open, you might talk about your own strengths. And I think that's important that we do. But in doing so the humility is one of recognising that my strengths are strengths for me, but I mustn't ever project those on to other people, they are, what makes me the person I can be for myself and others. I should never assume that is the value set or the set of behaviours or the approach that is right for everybody. So I think that sense of service and humility are really important along with that openness. And I suppose the final one, really, which is, again, might be back to my dad again, Anni. It’s don't play games, just be really straight. And he didn't play games at all, you absolutely knew where you stood, as you did with a lot of the people I grew up with. And I think that is something that can test us sometimes. But it's really important to me to be straight. And to recognise and value that as an approach to working with other people.

Anni Townend 

I think that's so important. Because when we are straight with people, we know where we stand. And for me, that gives me a sense of safety, which then enables me to be more of my best to be more of my authentic self. And I often think about leadership, being about becoming more of oneself. And I talk with people about, coaching and team coaching is about together becoming more of who we are becoming even more authentic in our leadership every day. How do you do that? John, how do you bring these values of service of belief and that service of openness and of being straight into your leadership? 

John Edwards

You mentioned safety there. I mean, I place a very high value on the sort of psychological safety that we all create in the spaces around us. Sometimes I've had people say, does that mean you're soft? And it absolutely, is not about having low expectations or low standards. In fact, sometimes it's about the very opposite of that. But it is about creating a space, whether that be through spending some time informally together, whether it be through setting the tone of any meeting I have, whether it be through showing respect and understanding for others and others opinions without either sort of responding or reacting in a way that really reveals some sort of judgement. It's about setting an environment in which all the things we're discussing are open and on the table in front of us. They're not hidden away not being discussed.

And I do try to make sure that I get to know people a little bit that I spend a bit of time understanding, listening to, helping people expand for themselves, what's driving them and what's important to them. And I think that process of getting to know and of having a little informality as well, in key relationships is vital for me in creating a space in which there is safety. The other part for me and I think, I’ve felt this really strongly all the way through my career is that people must feel that in any circumstance, that the risk they're taking by saying something or doing something is proportionate for them personally, to the to the opportunity that it reflects, and sometimes that's about as a leader taking responsibility for a culture that you've created and actions that flow from that and really making sure that it's always about learning if something happens in that culture, which perhaps isn't proving to be as strong. So it's not just about how you set the tone in the first place. It's also about when things do happen, whether they be successes or whether they be challenges. We all look at those together, we're all responsible for the culture and the decisions that we've taken. And we all look at those together as opportunities to then learn and develop and think about how we might work on those going forward. People are absolutely accountable for achieving what we achieved together. But I do think it's important that sense of personal risk is shared across a team and is shared within a relationship, even between two people, a line manager and a member of the team and sharing in that. And using all those as opportunities to reflect, learn and go forwards, I think is incredibly important.

Anni Townend 

And that highlights the importance I think of having big relationships and building bigger relationships. And part of the summit. Title is not only understanding ourselves, but understanding others and building those relationships in which we can take more risks and talk about what the opportunities are. I think there are many more possibilities inside of bigger relationships as well. For some of the listeners and viewers, they will be familiar, I know with Future Engage, Deliver. And that leadership starts in the future, that it's about building big enough relationships, and that the bigger the relationships, the more we can deliver together. 

And it's something that you put a lot of energy and focus into is communicating with people understanding your own strengths, but also understanding other's strengths, which I think is so important. And I think bridges us into the impact that we have on each other, which is such an important part of our leadership - before we explore that, you've mentioned your father and how his life was one of real belief in service. What about your mother, John? What from her has informed you and shaped your leadership? 

John Edwards

My mum was a very different character to my dad. And for quite a lot of my childhood either wasn't working for the for the first 10 years and then subsequently went out to work because we needed money, to be honest Dad had been made redundant for a period and we needed money, just basic money to live and she went out and worked in catering, which she'd worked in prior to having us as kids. I think my mum was a good example of somebody who offered extraordinary levels of support, that perhaps not quite as much affection as I would hope and try and bring. And she was very much one of service as well. But in a sense, she was service to us. She had her husband and two sons, and she very much was somebody who was in service to us. But what I think I saw in my mum was perhaps a frustration in that as well, in that, I think because her service was almost entirely internally driven by her dad as well. My grandma died relatively young, so her father also lived on his own and she basically served these four men in her life. And I think what I saw in her was that there was a lot of potential, there was a lot of what's the word I'm looking for kind of opportunity, really that restricted nature of her life had not not given and I think that's driven me a lot to seek and try and unpack with people, the sort of barriers that are set for them externally and internally. 

And I think with mum, it was both. It was confidence as well as opportunity. And it was assumed role and all those sorts of areas. And so from her I think I saw both the benefit to all of us just how hard she worked for us all, but also saw the impact on her. And that for me that's always been there for a key driver of identifying where I can help people to fulfil their potential and perhaps, quieten some of the doubting voices they may have by creating a circumstance in which opportunity does exist and they don't see risk or as much risk in taking them 

So, I think with Mum, she did everything for us, but nothing for herself. And I think in doing so not only did she not develop as much as she might have done, sounds patronising, she's not with us anymore, but in a way, nor did we, because my brother and I, we didn't see what she could be as well. 

And I think that's led me to really believe in wanting to enable people to grow for themselves. It's a bit to that finding your own leadership approach, and you need somebody to give you space in order that you can find that somebody to give you shelter, that you can find that and somebody to give you permission that you can find that. And I think that hadn't happened in my mom's life. I know that and can see it now from the other end, if you like. And that certainly drives me as well.

Anni Townend 

I think also, for me, John, there's something about other people believing in me when I have not felt confident or been worried about whether I could or couldn't do something, and held back perhaps from an opportunity is that other people through providing that, that safety, and encouragement, but most importantly, who have believed in me when perhaps I've doubted myself, and I think you've described people in your life who encouraged you to go into teaching, and I certainly see teaching and education as being about giving opportunity, and opening up possibilities for people and how we do that really, really matters.

John Edwards 

One reflection on that as well is that, for me, looking back at the early days when I was leading is seeing that I started if you like managing, but not leading, when I first became a head of department in a math department in a pretty large secondary school. And in the early days of that my own characterization of my role was around functions and tasks, it was around schemes of work and textbooks and resources and sequencing of the year and tracking pupil progress. And it took me I think quite a while to realise that in and amongst all of that. I was the leader of these people as well, they were watching what I was doing, they were watching how I was doing it, not just the 30 kids in the room now. And as they watched me and as I went around my, the things that I did, they weren't actually interested in what I was doing. In a way, it was great that we were reasonably well organised. I don't think we were perfect, but we're reasonably well organised. But actually, what they were watching was how I went about what I did, and the way I behave towards them, the way I behave out in the corridor with the with the pupils, the way I behaved, to my peers, and the way I behaved in the system as a whole. And I think it took me really quite a while. And one or two people helping me along the way to recognise that I could be a manager of a department, but could I be a leader of it, and to be a leader of it, I really needed to think more carefully, not about what I did, but about how I did it. And I think that was a really important stage for me in transitioning from, from the sort of manager, if you like, of a group of people to recognising that I didn't need to do an extra task. But I needed to behave in a different way if I was going to be a leader of those people. In every meeting we had, in every conversation we had, in every interaction we had. I was setting the tone and my behaviour was driving how it felt and the way that people were acting. And it took me a long time to get to that point. And that's my thing about not being born a leader. I learned it as I went along. I wasn't one of those people at School or University who was leading lots of people, I learned it as I went. And I think that's helped me to reflect and understand it better.

Anni Townend

It resonates with me because I often talk about leadership and you will have heard me talk about it. That leadership, it's more about who you are being than what you do in terms of tasks, obviously what you do but increasingly do with and through others in it when we are delivering and developing others as leaders, but I think the whole thing around who we are being and then how we behave, and thinking about the impact that we're having on people. Even when we think nobody is watching. Is really a important. 

And I think another of the lenses from Future Engage Deliver that some listeners will have come across is that of Leader Manager Operator mode. And the way I explain that is Leader mode we're asking the question Why am I doing this? Why am I here? So it's connected to what we care about our values and beliefs and our purpose; in Manager mode very much as you were describing, when we're in manager mode, we're focusing more on the processes on the how of the doing. And then of course, when we're in Operator mode, then we're focusing on the what, on the content. And I'm always very keen to assure people that we need different modes, but many of us will choose Manager/Operator, because a bit like you were saying early on in our conversation, you thought that your role as a teacher was to be the expert. And typically, that's why we are employed, because we're good at something. And then we discover that actually something else that is more to do with our being, in your case, I think communication and the way in which you create an environment, a culture in which people can flourish. We start to develop these other what Steve Radcliffe calls in his book Leadership, Plain and Simple, other ‘leadership muscles’, we become aware of what it means to be in Manager mode, and when we might need that. And then crucially, what are we like when we're in Leader mode, and really consciously thinking about who we are being and I think also that sits well, with the four energies of a leader thinking about who we're being and the physical, being our behaviour, how we show up in meetings, be it online, or in the room, how we walk down a corridor, we cannot help but have an impact. And of course, the thinking, the intellect, energy, the emotion, energy, and the energy of Spirit of the values, beliefs, and our passion and purpose. All of that I think is woven into what you describe as authentic leadership, and thinking about the impact we have when we are truly being ourselves. But you also mentioned in your theme, we have a collective leadership impact. Can you say a bit more about that John?

John Edwards 

I think the starting point for me on this is to be really aware as a leader, that we have a significant impact. We can call it our leadership shadow. And I think that sometimes I hear people say, it doesn't really matter what I do. It's about the team. It's about what the team do, and I suppose my starting point on that is to encourage anyone in a leadership role, to never underestimate the impact of everything they do in the way you describe and therefore to look after it well in their behaviour and not think that it will look after itself. And yes, when leaders have been complimented on great work, they always say, Oh, I've just lucky I have a great team. They're not lucky, they have a great team. They might have recruited well. But they might also have done extraordinary work to create an environment in which people are being better than that leader ever could be, you know, you are creating a space for that whole group to be leading together. 

And one of the things I've been working on in my current role is how myself and the colleagues in my own team that I lead, how we can share in the leadership of the of the groups that I that I head up and how we can welcome and embrace each other's leadership horizontally, as I sometimes call it, as well as recognising value and almost planning for our leadership in different directions, particularly in more senior leadership roles. The ability to lead diagonally, whether that be diagonally upwards, vertically upwards, diagonally downwards is incredibly important. And sometimes it's not only about, I've got a responsibility for a project in which I manage other people, a sort of matrix management approach. It's actually more about the role we play or it's also about the role we play and the leadership of the organisation as a whole. It's about how we react when other people are leading us which happens of course, in any role, it's about how we don't relinquish our structural position in the organisation ever but we can share and relinquish if you like, our leadership of other people to allow that space for, be that the expert be that the person with the energy be that the person whose behaviours are just right for the particular aspect of leadership for those people to lead us all in different ways. One of the things I try to ensure is that when we're thinking about our successes, Be that as a leadership team, be it as a as my own group, be it as a wider group, we neither celebrate individually, nor share the blame individually, we celebrat in the success of each other, and we deal with the challenges together. And actually, we extend that beyond our own team as well. And for me thinking about the whole the Department for Education, it's not a good thing, if another part of the department is struggling with one of its metrics. For me, that's a part of all of us. sharing that and the way that we join in that leadership challenge, even if it's through our behaviours in a meeting, if it's through the support that we offer individuals, if it's through the generosity, not necessarily of our resources, but a little bit of our spirit and time, I think makes a big difference to the both the impact that we have and the benefit that we can offer to other people. 

I sometimes think about it as 360, it's probably a three dimensional geometry version of 360 degrees, I don't know. But certainly that ability to reflect and think about how you lead and how you listen in all directions, and how you measure your leadership achievements in all directions as well. Moving Beyond the bit I'm directly responsible for and thinking about the responsibilities that we all carry in the whole leadership space of any organisation that we're a part of, and how are we share in that with our own teams and our colleagues.

Anni Townend

I think that speaks very much to leading from the we, that it's about bigger than who I am. It's about who we are collectively, and really thinking big about that. And I love your 360 degree leadership, because I'm often encouraging leaders to look up and look around to pay attention. And that speaks very much to paying attention to the context in which our leadership shows up. And that context can be as big and as broad as it needs to be. 

But I think we as leaders have a special role to play in helping people to understand the context to understand why what they do really matters as part of leading for that bigger picture. So very much in the territory of future but also paying attention to the current context. You mentioned, as well, the leader's shadow and I think getting to know, the shadow we cast and the light we shine is a really important part of leading and it's something that we can only do through asking other people about how they feel around us. And I often talk about leadership impact being close up, how you feel when you're with me, and reputation being further away. That's what people say about you to people who may never have met you. And again, we all have a reputation which goes before us. But impact is something that we can, when we think about it and think about at my best, what is the light that I shine? What's the impact I want to have? 

John Edwards

I really recognised that and I think I'm still developing in the space of the language I use in my conversations with colleagues and the kind of typical one to one conversation, you talk about some of the, you know, how somebody's feeling, you might talk about the work that's going on at the moment. And I might say, what more do you need from me? And is there anything else I can do to help? Is there anything that would be supportive of your development? I still find it harder to ask, how does it feel to be part of this team? Or how does it feel to be in this line manager and relationship or indeed with close colleagues as well and horizontal colleagues, so for me, I'm still continuing that and even though I've got a white beard, and I'm still working hard on how I can be more understanding of and more aware of the impact that I personally have, in every conversation I have every role I take and the perception of that can be so powerful, can’t it? Keeping the channels open to hear that is a continual challenge but one that I really try and be thoughtful about.

Anni Townend

I don't think it's a conversation that we readily have. And one of the questions I often ask leaders in between sessions or team days might be to go and gather some feedback from colleagues horizontally around, what is it like to be around me on a good day? What's it like to be around me on a bad day, and I and I say to people, it's about gathering some data on your impact. And the great thing about getting it from a few people, of course, is that the impact you have can only ever be an aspiration. So my impact, the impact I always want to have is that people feel seen, heard and understood. But I know that whilst that's an aspiration, it won't always happen, I'm a human being. So there's some to resonate with one of your values, there's some humility in that I know. But I know when I have that aspiration, and it's my intention, I do a better job of bringing it.

John Edwards

Absolutely. Going back to teaching and in any class, and teaching has changed a lot since I was teaching mostly in the 90s. But I was always very aware that there were circumstances in which, there were young people for whom it didn't work well, for whatever reason, the approach I took, and that's when you become a team, whether that, for me was as a math teacher, as part of a math department, or whether it was a pastoral leader, you become a team, and you act as a team. And it's your team capacity that enables you to work for all the people who are looking to you. And I think using that, whether it be from the classroom and teaching all the way through to, as I do, now, I'm running a big chunk of a large organisation, it's really important to draw on that capacity and that capability that sits horizontally with me and within my team to make sure that we are providing leadership in the best way possible for as many people as we can at any time. And knowing your own shadow is a part of that, and knowing how people react to you as a part of that.

Anni Townend

Most definitely. And as we come to the close of our conversation, John, thank you for shining your light today on the many things that you've shared openly and candidly, with me and with listeners, and viewers. What are your three key encouragement to leaders and maybe to people who don't actually think of themselves yet as being a leader, in terms of understanding themselves and understanding others better? 

John Edwards 

Thank you for asking this. And I think my first one comes from the, I wasn't born a leader point. And that I didn't create myself as a leader or copy it from everybody. Of course, there were people who inspired me, but actually, my leadership came from being given the space. So my recommendation is, don't try and copy or create your leadership approach. Just allow yourself to find it. And when you do observe it, but also look after it, it needs looking after like anything else that we do. So find it, observe it, and then look after it. And like any plant that needs looking after it needs watering, and it needs food, but it also needs to be allowed to grow as well. So find it, observe it, look after it.

Anni Townend 

Wonderful. And what other encouragement do you have? 

John Edwards

This might well be linked and it reflects something we were talking about a minute or two earlier Anni, but I sometimes hear people say haven't got time for some of the things you're talking about, John. I'm too busy managing to be able to put my efforts and time into leadership. I think it's about something you said earlier, which is, don't worry about making time for doing leadership. Just think about how you are being a leader. And being freed up from that horrible feeling that I've just not got time to be the leader I want to be and saying I can be the leader I want to be however busy I am today, however much I'm trying to deal with day to day pressure. It's your behaviour. It's how you show up that will make you the leader you are so don't worry about making time for doing leadership. Think about it and just be the leader you want to be.

Anni Townend

Wonderful and your final encouragement.

John Edwards

My final encouragement is actually a piece of parenting advice I was given. Its one that I freely dispense, which is listen to others, but trust your instincts because there's no right answer. The best leadership approach for you is yours. And the best answer might be yours as well. Always listen to others but do trust your instincts.

Anni Townend  

Thank you, John. Thank you so much. For sharing everything, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you should they want to find out more about how you do what you do, and connect with you.

John Edwards 

I’m really happy to hear from people and always happy to have a conversation. But the best way to get hold of me is through LinkedIn. I'm there on LinkedIn, I don't post a great deal, but quite a few people message me directly through LinkedIn so as to follow, I'll connect up and then send me a message. And I look forward to hearing from people you might want to take the conversation further.

Anni Townend  

Lovely. And I know that as we come to the very end of our conversation, the people at Transform Applied Leadership Summit are going to be asking questions after this. So there'll be more conversation to be had. And I want to say a big thank you to you but also to everybody at Transform Applied Leadership for inviting us to have this conversation to spark more conversations. And also to acknowledge Steve Radcliffe of Leadership, Plain and Simple the book. And if you want to find out more about Future Engaged Deliver, do head to the website, futureengagedeliver.com 

If you'd like to find out more about me Anni Townend do go to my website, and or find me on LinkedIn, Anni Townend and as well as thanking everybody at Transform Applied Leadership Summit. I'd like to thank my support team, my marketing team, the Conscious Marketing Group, and Coco O'Brien, who produces and releases the podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you, John.

John Edwards 

Thank you. Take care.