On Knowing Yourself and Building Relationships – a conversation with Helen Stephenson, CEO of the Charity Commission for England and Wales

About This Episode

In this episode I am delighted to be in conversation with Helen Stephenson, CEO of the Charity Commission for England and Wales

We delve together into: 

1. How as a leader the main tool in your leadership is yourself, which means you need to understand how you work - your strengths and weaknesses
2. Why getting the right team is crucial and making sure you recruit people who are different from you, and who have the right skills and personality to fit with the organisation and its needs.
3. Why leadership is All about relationships
4. And how there is no perfect leader, and the importance of knowing when good is good enough rather than aspiring to be everything all at once!

Helen’s Three Key Encouragements to Leaders 

• Know when you need to dive into the detail on an issue (you can’t/shouldn’t be across everything) and signal to your team that’s what you’re doing
• Being a leader is seeking to be a better version of yourself
• It can be lonely, have some support networks

To connect, follow and find out more about Helen:

LinkedIn: Helen Stephenson

Website: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/charity-commission

To find out more about Future Engage Deliver, www.futureengagedeliver.com

Buy the book by Steve Radcliffe ‘Leadership Plain and Simple’

https://www.pearson.com/en-gb/subject-catalog/p/leadership-plain-and-simple/

To listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend do go to my website, www.annitownend.com

A big thank you to my support team at the Conscious Marketing Group for helping me with all the marketing of the podcast, to Coco O’Brien for the wonderful intro and outro music, for the lovely design, and for the excellent editing and sound production.

To contact me Anni Townend do email me on anni@annitownend.com visit my website www.annitownend.com, subscribe to my newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn.  I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

About Helen Stephenson

I was first introduced to Helen Stephenson by Steve Radcliffe, who thought we would partner well together in some Executive Team Coaching for Helen’s team.  He was right! Helen and I have worked together with her leadership team over the past few years. We have introduced them to Future Engage Deliver, a leadership approach developed by Steve Radcliffe and wonderfully written about in his book Leadership Plain and Simple. And have gone on to share with my colleague Emily Court the Future Engage Deliver approach with the wider organisation of leaders, and their teams. It has been a privilege to work with Helen, and to be trusted by her to lead this programme - her commitment to developing people, and their leadership in particular has never wavered. On many occasions she has joined a development day, and been part of the welcoming and opening of the day sharing her leadership story, her values and beliefs, her passion and purpose. So I was thrilled when we agreed she would be a guest on my podcast, enabling listeners to learn from Helen, to be inspired and motivated in their leadership.

Transcript

Anni Townend 

Welcome, and welcome back to leaders in conversation with me, Anni Townend the podcast that helps you to grow confidence, care, and courage in your leadership. I created this series of candid conversations for leaders to share their personal leadership stories with you to inspire and to motivate and encourage you on your own leadership journey. Together, we delve into the people, places and experiences that have shaped them, and made them who they are today. We explore their values and beliefs, their passion and purpose, and how they live these through their leadership every day. If you haven't already, please do subscribe to the podcast, connect with me via LinkedIn and do visit my website, annitownend.com. 

Today, I'm absolutely delighted to be in conversation with Helen Stephenson, Chief Executive of the Charity Commission for England and Wales. 

Together, we delve into how, as a leader, the main tool in your leadership toolkit is yourself. 

We explore why getting the right team is crucial, and making sure that you recruit people who are different from you, and why leadership is absolutely all about relationships. 

And finally, how there is no perfect leader and the importance of knowing when good is good enough rather than aspiring to be everything all at once. 

Helen, welcome. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. And to delving and diving and exploring these key themes that I know are at the heart of your leadership. 

Helen Stephenson

It's lovely to be here Anni. Thank you.

Anni Townend 

You're very welcome. And I know one of your themes that we're going to speak about is, you are your own leadership tool. In other words, knowing who you are, is the best tool that we've got. And I'd love to start by asking, who are you? Who are the people, places and experiences that have shaped you and made you the leader that you are today?

Helen Stephenson 

I think I’d go right back to the beginning to talk about that. And really, my family has been a real strong element in shaping me as a person and as a leader. I'm the oldest of three children.I have an older half brother, but there were three of us. And we lived near the coast. We had a great upbringing. It was lovely until early teenage years. When I was about 12. When I was 12, my mom had cancer and died, not suddenly, but certainly we were away on holiday. And she died quite dramatically, I think for all of us. So, for us as three children that very formative bit of, of losing a parent at a very young age. And for me as the oldest, I think, actually feeling very responsible for my siblings having a very strong sense of responsibility was key, I think, in shaping me as a person and as a leader. And sometimes that's been a really positive thing, I think in terms of it means I work hard. And I try really hard. As I've got older, I've had to learn that actually, I can't be responsible for everything, and I can't take everything onto my own shoulders. I think as I've matured, other things have come into play that have shaped my resilience and shaped me as a leader. And, again, I'm going back to my family. So I'm married, I have two stepdaughters and I have a son who's 21. And in those circumstances, life is very full. So I can't be completely absorbed by what I do in my work, I can't be just defined by myself as a leader or as a worker, I have a number of different persona, if you like, or a number of different aspects to my character. And it's about making sure that all of those aspects come to the fore, both as a person and as a leader.

Anni Townend  

You talked there, Helen, about having a number of different personas. And I often talk about values and beliefs and our passion and purpose running through us in all our different personas, roles and responsibilities. You've mentioned responsibility being one that was shaped by tragedy in your family of origin and the shock of all of that. What are the values and beliefs from your childhood from the place in which you were brought up, by the seaside, which sounds glorious, have shaped you?

Helen Stephenson

I'm quite a social person. When I think about my personality type, I'm a classic leader, I think. An extrovert in the sense that I extrovert my thinking quite a lot, and I think that comes from my father who was just a great character, actually. And through that tragedy, kept us all together and gave us a real sense of being a family.

Anni Townend

What I'm hearing there is, the tragedy shaped your sense of responsibility, you being the oldest, but what I'm also hearing is that a very strong value around keeping things together that came from your father, who kept you all together, that sense of holding things together, as well.

Helen Stephenson

I think the other thing that's run through my career, which is quite an eclectic one, I've worked in a number of different areas, done a number of different things, but has been a desire to see social impact to be involved in doing something that has a cause or an impact behind it. So, that I think drives the decisions I've taken in my career and it drives what makes me tick a bit as a leader as well. So both working in an organisation, or with organisations, that are delivering for good or delivering services for society, but also working in a way that fundamentally respects and cares for the people that I work with. Now, it doesn't mean to say don't make tough decisions or have to make tough decisions. But I think at the core of what I bring to my leadership is a concern and a care for both the people I work with, but also the people we are trying to support in the role that I have as leader of the Charity Commission. So, I guess it's that core of social impact that really has driven a lot of decisions I've taken and roles that I've taken, as well, in my career.

Anni Townend

That making a difference, is that something that you appreciated early on in your life or was that through working and studying and life later on?

Helen Stephenson

I was always a bit of an organiser. I guess I've always been involved in things that have some kind of A, organisation and B, trying to support others. 

Anni Townend

You spoke about your strength of being an extroverted thinking person. And so doing some of your thinking out loud, and with others, and that being a strength. What are some of the other strengths? Do you have superstrength?

Helen Stephenson

So on the extrovert thinking side, I think when you get into a leadership role. One of the things that's really important is to really calibrate that for people around you, because what I've noticed is when you are an extrovert in terms of thinking, people either think that's what you've just told them to do, o r they give you all the reasons why you can't do it. And both of those things are the wrong answer. I've learned over the years, just to say, I am just thinking out loud now. And I think that helps as a leader. You need to understand the impact that you're having on other people, and therefore, framing the way that you work is really important because people don't instinctively pick that up. 

I've worked for a number of years. And I guess what I've got is adaptive experience. And when you put the experience together with quite strong intuition, I think that creates quite a powerful tool about being able to look to the future, look at the horizon. Look where you think your organisation, your team are going rather than the here and now. And for me, reflecting on leadership, that's really one of the key things is about being able to be a step ahead, a heartbeat ahead of the organisation. And I think just looking back at the COVID years for me, just knowing that I had to look up and look out, even though the circumstances that we were in, was so difficult. Leading the organisation meant I just had to be thinking about what the future might hold, what might the organisation need. Being able to bring together experience and knowledge and intuition to be future focused, I think has been really important for me.

Anni Townend

I really resonate with that. I often talk about leadership being a future based activity so that thinking from the future, I think is really important and having worked with you, Helen, I know that something that is a real strength of yours. The other thing that you mentioned there is the importance of signposting of knowing yourself and you being your best and biggest leadership tool. What you're doing is thinking out loud, you're not necessarily telling them what to do, you are thinking out loud and inviting them to think with you. And that's another thing that I think is really important is how leaders create, like you do, that thinking environment, something that Nancy Klein talks about in her work? 

Helen Stephenson

I think that signposting is a very good way of describing it, and going back to that idea of yourself as the main tool of leadership, the further you go in terms of leading an organisation, the less you actually practically do, what you're doing is working in and through and with others the whole time. The greatest impact you have is in yourself. And therefore what you need to be or what you need to work on is how can you be the best version of yourself as a leader? Because every bit that you do, everything you say, every way in which you operate, has an impact on the people around you. And that, for me, it’s been one of the key lessons of my time in the commission. 

Anni Townend 

It's such an important lesson, isn't it? That leadership at this very senior level, which is ever more about who you're being, rather than what you do, but you're doing it through and with others. So having the right team around you really matters. And I know that's something which is really important to you through knowing yourself is also making sure that you have and recruit the right people. What does that mean to you by way of diversity and inclusivity? 

Helen Stephenson 

I've been thinking a lot about this. And the way that I would describe it is that you can't afford to have a monoculture in your organisation, within your executive team, it's too risky. And I've taken real thought and care about building my team. And I was reflecting on this the other day that, they come from different cultures, they come from different backgrounds, they come from different parts of the country. They have different educational experiences. They think differently. Some are really big picture thinkers, some are really focused on the detail. And most importantly, they're all different from me. Very early in my career, I remember appointing somebody who I thought was great, you know, had a very similar worldview to me, very similar personality, And it was a disaster. Because I didn't need somebody like me, working alongside me, I needed somebody different. And I suppose building your team is as much understanding your strengths as it is understanding your weaknesses, the areas where you're not strong. And for me that big picture thinking strategy, the future is great. But I need people with me to help me get there. Because otherwise, you know, I can see where we've got to get to but I don't always know how we're going to get there. So building a team that can help us get to where it is as an organisation we need to do is absolutely key. If knowing about yourself is the first thing I talk about then building, most effective team is the second thing. I think it's crucial. And yes, it's about skills. Yes, it's about experiences, but it's about personality too. The way in which people operate together, the way in which they're going to impact the organisation. It's like putting together a really important bit of a puzzle, to make it work for an organisation, particularly from my organisation. It's not huge one but personality, as part of that team will have an impact. It’s been a key lesson for me and something that I've really worked hard to achieve.

Anni Townend

It's really great to hear you talking about impact, not only the personal impact that we each have as leaders but the collective impact of a team on the organisation and of course how that then has the social impact the people that you are in service of in your role and the collective role. And I think it's so important and leads into another of your themes, which is that leadership very much happens inside of relationship that it's all about relationships. 

Helen Stephenson 

I've got an organisation of about 480 people. And where we are most effective is where relationships are strong, doesn't mean to say we're all best friends. But the relationships are strong, we're able to disagree, we're able to challenge each other. But fundamentally, we're pulling in the same direction. And spending time, energy. Quality time, is absolutely key for that. In fact, only last week, we had a really busy week with an annual public meeting, a lot on, pressure into the organisation. And it just struck me how easy it would be for us as a team to fragment. We've got a lot of change happening. People are very busy. And I just felt at that point, we need to just reconnect, spend a little bit of time together, and just have a bit of a laugh. I cannot say how important I think humour is in leadership, because it's what bond's us together. It what relaxes us, it what levels us as a team. So yes, definitely, building relationships is absolutely key. And again, I'm not talking about, we have to spend every minute of the day together, but addressing as a leader, either relationship challenges, or relationship strengths or weaknesses is absolutely key, because you are only as strong as the people working together to achieve your common aim. So as we've set out our values as an organisation this year, very much wanting to build the culture around the new strategy. And one of those is around collaboration and support. Because for an organisation like the commission, actually, being able to work together in a supportive way is the only way we're going to achieve the massive tasks that we have before us. So it's not just a nice to have, it's a must have, from my perspective as a leader.

Anni Townend

It's an essential, isn't it making time to build our relationships? And you and I first were introduced to each other by our colleague and friend, Steve Radcliffe, who wrote the first time he published his book, Future Engage Deliver, he self-published it. And when asked always says, He would have self published it, republished it as, Future Engage, Engage, Engage Deliver, to emphasise the importance of leadership happening inside of relationship and paying attention to our relationships, and making time to have a laugh together. And certainly, for my own perspective, when I think about my big relationships, not necessarily best friends, with everyone with whom I have a big relationship, any conversation is possible with them, I feel safe to be able to have any conversation. And I think spending time together as a leadership team, as an executive team is so important to being able to have those conversations with each other.

Helen Stephenson

We have an executive meeting, we always start with just a bit of space at the beginning of the meeting to talk about how we're coming into the meeting. It might have been even you that brought us into that idea, otherwise you go straight into the technical detail. There's so much pressure, there’s so much to do. So it's just giving that space at the beginning just to think about how people are coming into the room. I think so, so important. And I suppose going back to, if leadership's about your background, if leadership's about your experience, and it's also about your relationships, and it's about getting the best from people. And you do that through relationship. It's how our whole society operates and therefore, why should it be any more different in an organisation? We did Future Engage Deliver together. Now we're working through the whole organisation, building that connection, building that shared relationship and being able to think about how we take the organisation forward together, which is so important.

Anni Townend

Helping each other to be the best version of ourselves and helping each other to be our best, and that's one of the values that you mentioned of the Charity Commission around collaboration, of working together and with our differences. I was really struck by you talking earlier about not creating a monoculture from the world of permaculture, it's all about that diversity and biodiversity that we thrive through diversity, but understanding our differences, which we can only do inside of relationship, which is so important.

Helen Stephenson 

Yes. And understanding, helping people to be the best version of themselves. Helping me to be my best version as a leader also means understanding what the worst version of me is. It is this understanding, where's the shadow in all of this? And what happens when you're under pressure? What happens when you're stressed? What happens when you're feeling low? And how then as a team, do you react to that? And how do you spot it in each other? How do you spot it in yourself? And how do you adapt in order to make sure that you don't overly impact as a result of that side of yourself as well?

Anni Townend 

I think it can be really helpful in signposting, again, sharing what we're like when we're at our best. So again, back to your first theme around knowing yourself, knowing what you're like at your best. And also knowing what you're like when you're at your worst, and being able to speak to that. And as well, what triggers you from being at your best to being at your worst, I think, is really helpful. And I know some leaders who, when arriving to work with a new team, begin that conversation with here are a few things to know about me, this is what I’m like, at my best, this is what I'm like, at my worst, this is the impact I'm likely to have on a good day or a bad day. And here are some of the triggers that trigger me from being at my best. And what helps me to get back to being the best version of myself and again, that openness and sharing in a team is so useful. It's lovely to hear that you make time for each other at the beginning of a meeting to share how you really are.

Helen Stephenson

Yeah, I think that's really important.

Anni Townend

Lovely. And as we come to your final theme, which is, there's no such thing as a perfect leader, and knowing when good is good enough. Helen, how did you find that out?

Helen Stephenson

I guess going back to this idea of your background and your experiences shaping you, I think, going back to that tragic bit of my backstory, the lack of a mother through my formative years. I couldn't calibrate when I'd done enough, which fed into my sense of responsibility made me a hard worker, etc. I didn't know when good was good enough. Keep going, keep working, you know, and then maybe having a child made a difference, because there's literally no way you can be the perfect mother. 

Although I think in my mind, I still think I thought there must have been the perfect way to make sure your baby didn't cry or ate the right food or, I think even then I had this sense that there must be out there this perfect persona, and therefore all I had to do was try and achieve it. And I guess just through experience, I just realised, being good enough, is fine. And in terms of leadership, understanding yourself, engaging through the kinds of training that we did with you. If I could understand where I wasn't particularly strong, then I could build a team with strengths in that I didn't need to be the super, absolutely 100% completely perfect leader. There isn't a perfect leader, we're all flawed. And that's why it's so important that I come back to this sense that if you know yourself, you can play to your strengths, and you can build around your weaknesses. And that's why that's completely key. And that means there is no one type of person that can be a leader. There's no one set of experiences that make you a brilliant leader, but being able to reflect on those experiences, reflect on what's formed you as a person that enables you to really, I think, lead your organisation, with foresight and understanding. And that's key. 

But I think coming back to that, When's good is good enough? That is really important, too, because the people around you will have that sense of driven identity, and they need to know when good is good enough. And sometimes we need to push forward. Yes, we need to encourage and exhort. But sometimes you just need to let them know that it's okay. That's good enough. And that's the key point in leadership too, knowing when to exalt, knowing when to say, Do you know what, that's good enough. And getting that balance right is key.

Anni Townend  

Helen, thank you, as we come to the close, what are your three key encouragement to leaders? There have been many in our conversation, but what are your three key encouragements to listeners and leaders? 

Helen Stephenson

Being an empowering leader doesn't mean to say you don't get into the detail, you don't see things that has such strategic importance for the organisation that you need to know everything about it. So framing that letting your team know, letting your organisation know when, is the moment when you're gonna have to, as a leader, get right down into the detail and be involved in what it is they're doing. That's the number one thing.

I think, Secondly, you know, it's lonely, actually. It's a lonely place and making sure that you build the support networks, find some peer networks, and particularly, I think in a chief executive role. There isn't anybody else in the organisation. So you've got the board above you, you've got your executive team with you. So really looking to where you can get that support from and for me, that coaching mentoring, support has been key. In that space, having a sounding board, you can't talk to everybody about everything. So having a sounding board outside of the organisation is really key. 

And then I'll come back to where we started, which is basically being a leader is being a better version of yourself. And the way in which you develop as a leader is to develop yourself. And so, that to me, is, if I've learned anything, the number one thing that I've learned.

Anni Townend 

Thank you, Helen, thank you so much. For people who would like to get in touch with you, potentially other chief executives who are inspired to maybe talk with you, seek you out as a sounding board for them. How do people get in touch with you, personally, professionally?

Helen Stephenson

I think the best way for me has been through LinkedIn actually, it's been a great way in which people have reached out and I've been able to set up some conversations as a result of that. So I think that's a really important tool for us as leaders to be able to make connections outside of the organisation, the area, the sector that we work in. And that's a good way to reach out to me.

Anni Townend

Great, so I encourage you, the listener, to connect and contact Helen through LinkedIn. Also, if you, the listener, are interested in finding out more about the Charity Commission, Helen is the best way of doing that through the website.

Helen Stephenson

Yes, it is. We have a website CharityCommission.gov.uk. There's a lot of information about the Charity Commission there, and ways to contact us as well. So definitely find out more about us. It's a great organisation.

Anni Townend 

Absolutely. And I know it is a great organisation having worked with you and worked with people in the organisation. You and I have mentioned Future Engage Deliver. So anybody interested in finding out more about that do check out futureengagedeliver.com but also read Steve Radcliffe's book, Leadership, Plain and Simple, originally called Future Engage Deliver. 

If you would like to listen to more Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend, do go to my website annitownend.com. 

A good way to connect with me also is via LinkedIn, Anni Townend not only a thank you to Helen, but also a thank you to my support team, my support network that helped me in the production of the podcast, the Conscious Marketing Group, and Coco O'Brien, who produces the podcast. Thank you for listening, and a huge thank you, to you, Helen.

Helen Stephenson 

Thank you, Anni