Finding Your Collaborative Edge – Anni Townend and Lucy Kidd in conversation with Natalie Shering exploring their Collaboration Equation™

ABOUT THIS EPISODE
Co-Founders Anni Townend and Lucy Kidd in conversation with Natalie Shering for a special episode of Leaders in Conversation with Anni Townend podcast. Here they explore why Curiosity, Care and Courage are the mindset and behaviours that underpin their Collaboration Equation™ to:

• Build Psychological Safety
• Practise Inclusive Dialogue
• Invite Diversity of Thought & Feeling and
• Drive Collaborative Edge

Psychological Safety
Together they share how they met some 18 years ago and realised very early on in their working relationship that starting with and building psychological safety underpins creating cultures of care and connection in which people enjoy connecting, contributing and collaborating.

Curiosity, Care and Courage
They discuss how they partner with senior leaders and their teams helping them to bring the mindset and behaviours of Curiosity, Care and Courage to develop people and drive performance and how these underpin each of the building blocks of their Collaboration  Equation™.

Meeting People where they are at, and moving from ‘me to we’
They specialise in meeting people where they are at, on having people well met, and supporting them in leading and driving Collaborative Edge through Inclusive Dialogue, Diversity of Thought and Feeling. And why for them inclusivity comes before diversity, the importance of Inclusive Dialogue, and how language can have a huge impact on how people think, feel and behave.

Open Conversations to get to Collaborative Edge
Their approach is one of helping leaders do their best thinking together, to think differently, to have open conversations in which people feel confident and safe, enjoy Inclusive Dialogue, and can bring Diversity of Thought and Feeling in order to get to Collaborative Edge. The conversations are always in service of enabling performance and driving results through people working together.

CONNECT WITH US
Collaboration Workshops, We are all Culture Creators:
How to Find Your Collaborative Edge workshops.

Fortnightly Coaching Conversations Series:
A series of questions to prompt conversations that will help you to lead with Curiosity, Care and Courage. Subscribe here.

WHO WE ARE
Lucy Kidd is a leadership team and culture coach, and describes how culture is the wrapping that feeds change and, or stifles it. Lucy’s passion is to help people find meaning and connection in their lives and work.

Anni Townend is a leadership partner to senior leaders and their teams. Anni’s passion is to help leaders create a culture in which people feel safe and able to have open conversations and do their best work. Anni is the author of Assertiveness and Diversity, published in 2007.

Natalie Shering is a leadership coach specialising in creative leadership and using nature in leadership. She is a collaborator with Collaboration Equation™.

Transcript

Anni Townend: Hello, and welcome to Leaders in Conversation with Annie Townend. In this special episode, I'm the other side of the microphone with my colleague and friend Lucy Kidd in conversation about our collaboration equation with Natalie Schering, one of our collaborators. 

Natalie Shering: Fantastic. It's lovely to be with you both, Lucy and Annie to, yeah, be on the other side of the mic and hear a little bit more about the collaboration equation.

And I wonder, it might be a nice way to start for your listeners to hear a bit more about you because, Annie, when you're in conversation with other leaders, don't hear much about you. So it'd be lovely to hear a little bit more about it. who you are as leaders, as people and how you came to be in collaboration and in conversation with one another.

Lucy Kidd: That's a lovely invitation. Thank you. Um, and it's exciting to be here all together today in conversation. So thank you. And that's for the encouragement that you gave us to be the other side of the microphone and to do it together. Appreciative of that encouragement and support. So I'm Lucy Kidd. And I am a leadership coach and lately I've been describing myself as a leadership team and culture coach, um, largely due to the realization that actually any big behavior change, um, Ultimately comes down to the culture, um, being the wrapping that really either feeds that and nourishes that behavior change or stifles it.

Um, and it's something we're going to talk about a lot more today, Annie and I, and it's really what draws us together, um, and has done for many years now. Annie and I have known each other for, um, I think it's about 18 years. I was going 

Anni Townend: to say 

Lucy Kidd: 20 

Anni Townend: years. 

Lucy Kidd: Possibly 20 years, yeah. So back in my days when I was with Unilever as an internal leadership, um, in house expert, coaching leaders across the organisation, designing and delivering leadership programmes.

And met Annie through one of those programs, had a lot in common already, straight away, both got backgrounds in psychology, um, and a fascination with, I think, human beings in general and leadership in particular, and particularly helping leaders find connection and meaning and purpose with the work that they do to really help them to bring their best work to the organization, but also to themselves.

One of the things that I'm truly passionate about is helping people find more meaning and connection. I believe that we spend far too many hours at work for those of us that do to not find some sort of connection, meaning, even happiness and fulfillment whilst we're there. And that's what I really love about the sort of work we do.

Annie and I have worked together on and off. Since then, really, since that first meeting, um, through me leaving Unilever and, um, actually joining a group of associates of leadership coaches and consultants of which Annie was part of. And in fact, we were the only females at the time, way back then. 15 years ago and gave each other a huge amount of encouragement, support and coaching along that journey.

Um, being in partnership in the room with leaders, teams and organizations and also outside of the room. Yeah, I've been Very appreciative of the support and encouragement Annie gave me when I stepped into that external role coming out of the organization and finding my feet as a coach and consultant.

Um, and Annie was very much a mentor, guiding coach to me. And then along the, along the years, we've found a new partnership and a new collaboration as co founders of our collaboration equation. 

Anni Townend: I describe myself as a leadership partner to leaders and their teams. So I work mainly with senior leaders, both with them and their teams, but also one to one with them.

And that's what I was doing when I met you all those years ago. And was working on a delivering leadership commitments program, uh, with leaders from all over the world. And you and I, as you rightly say, connected and have maintained and enjoyed that connection during that time and work together, being in the room together with client groups, large and small.

And I think one of the things that brings us together and that we're really. Good at doing is creating that safe environment. And that was what we created for each other as colleagues, but also recognize that with leaders and their teams, that our work is about helping them to create a culture in which people feel safe and are able to be themselves.

Indeed, do their best work. And I also feel very supported and challenged sometimes, but always encouraged by you, particularly way back when, when we met. Um, I had already started writing my book, having been working at Henley Business School and worked on a book around building confidence and assertiveness, inclusivity and diversity.

And had been invited to be part of a new series in which, uh, I was asked to do a bigger book on assertiveness and diversity, which was then published in 2007. And you've always, Lucy, encouraged me, uh, in my being a thought leader. And it's. In thinking a bit ahead of the curve, because now inclusivity and diversity are really very, very current.

And the other day I was working on the marketing leaders program and one of the speakers there was speaking about let's do away with diversity inclusion. Equity and instead talk about DNA instead of, um, diversity and inclusion. I thought that would be so great to get to a place where there is connection.

People are able to contribute and to collaborate in the way that we feel so strongly about. 

Lucy Kidd: It's one of the things that I've always really loved and admired, Annie, in the work that you do, and that I witnessed you bringing before I fully stepped into that space myself, was that natural ability that you seem to have to create that safe space, and some of it, I think, is how you Very consciously choose to show up in the room when you're meeting the leaders and the teams that you're working with One of the things you say time and time again is it's so important to meet people Well, and to have people feel well met and we build on that now in our work together to really meeting people where they are wherever they are whomever they are and to then create the safe space to go somewhere together.

Um, and I'm, I'm really pleased you mentioned the book. I know you don't always, um, yeah, absolutely. That I think something that we perhaps have always done each of us. In our own way, quite naturally because of our fascination with human beings and that DNA, that what is at the heart of everyone that they can offer forward to the world, to each other, to the work they're doing together, um, to really bring their fullest contribution and both being really passionate about that and how we meet and encourage and nurture that space for people and, um, Indeed, you were talking about it and writing about it as safety way back when, in 2007, when you published, um, and way before that, and it's really encouraging and in some ways, I guess, reassuring that organizations are now really understanding and appreciating the need for that safety, for psychological safety and all the research that's since been published and the stories that are out there around psychological safety and the importance of it.

It's refreshing that there's now a, there's now more of a common language and appreciation of the importance of it. 

Anni Townend: I think so. And in fact, it's how I met you Natalie, many years ago on a leadership program when you were, uh, working internally to a, at a pharmaceutical organization, and I had the pleasure of meeting you and the experience of being well met by you, and I hope you did by me as well, and again, working with you on that program.

And then when you became an independent executive coach to to leaders and their teams supporting you in that, as you have done me over the years, so it's a real treat to have you here with Lucy and I and also an opportunity for us to share another of our partnerships, which is with you around walking partnerships, which we co created and is part of our work, both Lucy.

Lucy and I in our collaboration equation work, which we, as Lucy mentioned, we have founded, but also in our work more generally, the importance of movement of walking and talking and of side by side conversations and people having an opportunity to use nature in their leadership to draw on it and to that, to be part of.

getting in touch with their own nature. And how do we nourish that in terms of the culture? The metaphor of nature can be so usefully used in the work that we do with leaders on the culture that they're creating and nourishing and growing. 

Natalie Shering: Yeah, lovely. And listening to some of the words that are coming through there, some of the strands of the DNA, the nourishment, the walking alongside.

And in front of at different times in your story. And that really echoes how I see when I work with you. Um, you know, that ability to partner in a way. It does meet, uh, individuals where they are, teams where they are, and then says how we're going to navigate our way through this landscape, um, in a way that feels safe and inviting and encouraging to you.

What stories might you tell? What stories might you create? And with that in mind, I wanted to sort of take you into that thinking about what did you notice, um, in the work that you were doing independently and collectively that brought you to the concept of the collaboration equation? What, what made that spark?

Anni Townend: It relates back to your encouragement many years ago when you were working in and living in Dubai, and there was an opportunity for, um. us to work with another pharmaceutical client, and they invited us to share our thinking on how we might be able to help them create an environment in which people could be open and speak their, their truth and, and share their thoughts, which they didn't feel able to do.

And, um, I, knowing that Lucy was working there and could go and meet the client in person, I suggested that she did that and she said, Well, I think what would be helpful, you remember your thinking around the seven C's of bold leadership. And I said, Yes, I, I do. But I can't remember what those seven C's are, which is probably why it isn't a thing.

And she said, Well, Dust it off and let's have another look at it together because it would be really helpful to go in and speak with this client with something that we could hang our work on and everything that's in the seven Cs of bold leadership underpins even now what we do. But what we realized is that there are three keys.

key things that underpin our collaboration equation, which are curiosity, care, and courage, which were three of the seven C's, and indeed they underpin the psychological safety, inclusive dialogue, diversity thought of feeling, and inclusion. collaboration equation, which is what we've gone on to, to create.

Lucy Kidd: I think that, um, that realization, it was through that very piece of work where we partnered with that organization to really help them create that safe environment so people could speak up, that we realized the importance of those three in particular as mindset and behavior is actually underpinning the ability to create that safe space and to meet each other.

Importantly as human beings. In the work environment, so really noticing through that experience that with with the power of curiosity of being open to really listen and explore and understand to withhold judgment as much of any of us can do that and to notice if a judgment does pop up. To get curious about what's going on there.

What is that view? What is that opinion and to have the courage to speak it out and to explore it together and to do that with care and compassion and empathy for each other. And we really noticed through that experience that those three curiosity, care and courage really feed each other to create the psychological safety, to build the trust.

to create space and opportunity for connection human to human. It was a real aha moment to notice that, um, with this, with this team, this organization and then to build from there. 

Natalie Shering: Fantastic. And really hearing that sense of, um, iteration, you know, it started, you've both got collectively, you know, many years not to give away your vintages, but many years of experience.

Um, But, you know, cooking that together and noticing those going from seven C's to three C's and really hitting upon the notion that actually these are the essential building blocks of success for teams and being able to then move forward as humans. Collectively with one another. Absolutely, 

Anni Townend: and to deliver, um, and drive great results through collaboration.

We're both really passionate about that, so we came up with the collaborative edge through thinking about nature and that growth happens at the edges. And recognizing that instead of competitive edge, that what we need culturally and human to human is collaborative edge and looking for where we can have those collaborations.

So actively seeking them out, who could I collaborate? And the people we collaborate typically are the people that we feel safe with. And at the same time to think, where do I need to build that kind of safety so that together we can get the best, we innovate, we can create. We can drive real collaborative edge.

Natalie Shering: You picked up some of the core themes there, around the collaborative equation, the concepts that are sitting behind that. I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about What does it feel like to be in that work? What, what would people notice, uh, about that approach when you were in the room with them? How would they experience 

Lucy Kidd: it?

Well, we work through conversation and through questions. So very much our, our ambition in service of the organizations that we work with and their ambition is to help them have the conversations that really matter, that are going to help them find more points of connection between each other and with the work that they're doing.

What. Is it they're driving together collectively. So and we always start with creating safety and always have done. I think that's the, that's perhaps something that we've always done is coming more and more to the forefront and that we keep coming back to because that realization in terms of if we're going to get to that collaborative edge, that space where we can not only support but also challenge each other and invite difference and diversity of thought and feeling, which is.

a part of our equation to really invite that difference through. We need to keep coming back to safety. So all the time we're paying attention to the safety that's available in the room. We're calling out that everybody in that experience is part of co creating that safety together. Um, and it's a really important part of the work we do that.

The teams, the groups, the organizations we're working with realize that they are co creating that in the moment. It's, you know, we might invite an offer and provide a container and they're the ones who are living and breathing it. So to be able to take that back into the work that they're doing, the conversations they're having day to day, Is hugely central to the work that we do.

And 

Anni Townend: one of the things that you mentioned there, Lucy, around diversity of thought, which is what most people talk about when talking about diversity, is we've added and feeling. And that's really important to us because we have discovered that just as diversity of thought isn't always welcomed, or we can feel uncomfortable with that.

So is feeling that we can be in the same situation. You might feel one thing, Natalie, and I might feel another thing and being able to share how we feel our different felt experience to the same situation. And for that to be heard and acknowledged, nothing to be done, but just simply to be heard and acknowledged.

And listen to and maybe again, dialing up curiosity, care and courage, having the curiosity to ask you more about, Oh, tell me more about how you're feeling about that. Why does this matter to you so much, um, is really, really important and people being able to hear that diversity of feeling as well as. the diversity of thought, which then leads to that greater opportunity and possibility for collaboration and to get to collaborative edge and, and really drive great results.

Natalie Shering: I'm going to pick up your phrase there, tell me more, Annie, um, because there is something about your approach that is different. You know, listeners may be thinking, well, these are leadership consultants, so they'll come in and they'll tell us how to do stuff and I'll be able to leave with a manual of things to implement.

But that's not how you work. I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about that opening conversation and how you use collaboration equation to unpack some of the big challenges that organizations and teams are facing. You know, if We're a few years away from lockdown and all that stuff, but that's had quite a tail, um, you know, people emerging into organizations, having never met one another, a hybrid nature of working.

So I'd love to hear more about how. You see collaboration equations sitting alongside some of those things and how you make that live in the room with, with colleagues. 

Lucy Kidd: Well, it's always in service of the ambition of the team, of the leaders in the room, of the organization. And sometimes the first thing that we're doing is helping them unpack, explore and co create what that shared ambition is.

So, It's always in the service of what are the results that you're driving together and how can we help you get there? What are some of the conversations along the way that are going to help you create the culture that is going to nourish and enable those results to happen? Often there's an exploration and some discovery that will happen through those very early conversations, often with an executive team.

with the senior leaders unpacking or what are some of the issues and challenges that are showing up in the organization. Often they've emerged through engagement survey results. Um, perhaps very clearly as you talked about the pharmaceutical company we work with very clearly, um, being engaged. told from the organization that it doesn't feel safe to speak up and to challenge or to bring difference of opinion, um, or it might be not having clarity on what the shared vision or what my contribution as a member of that team is to be able to create that.

That result to to serve that purpose. So usually there's some concern, some challenge that the senior leaders are facing into that. They're looking for support and coaching on enablement with and I think alongside 

Anni Townend: Helping them explore what the ambition is, which will be a big ambition usually, and exploring how we can partner with them, collaborate with them, so they make it their own.

It's very much a partnership, our work with senior leaders and their teams. The other thing is we're, we're We're very attentive to the context in which their leadership is showing up and we make time and take time to understand their context. So thinking about, for example, many organizations going through restructuring, big changes at the moment.

That can have people feel unsafe. It can actually have people retreat from the very thing that we are passionate about collaboration. And so one of our initial conversations would be, you know, what does it feel? Like around here at the moment in that top team and how how they feel is a mirror probably of the rest of the organization and how can they have those conversations facilitated by us open and honest conversations and also time to reflect.

I think what we create as well for the leaders and the teams is a thinking space, a space in which they can reflect and think. And think about things that often in the busy day to day, the back to back meetings, be they online, in person, that they don't have time for. So some of those big conversations don't happen because they don't have the thinking time.

So we create that thinking time. We're known for never using slides. We're known for, uh, encouraging, as I mentioned earlier, the walk and talk side by side conversations. Which again is a reflection of we're helping leaders move through things, move towards something, to think ahead, to draw on the past, but also to really think from the future and to think how together can we get there, even if we take slightly different routes, where are we, where, where do we want to get to?

And how can we help each other? And our teams and the rest of the organization by creating an environment in which people can truly also do their best thinking together and drive the results. 

Lucy Kidd: The other thing I guess that's important to mention and highlight is often that work is emergent. So we might start with a key challenge, a key issue that we're supporting with and creating an environment where a leadership team can have the conversations to help them get some insights and explore their own differences together.

And something new might pop up, a new issue, a new challenge, perhaps an unexpected one that hadn't already been named and called out. And we love that. We do. That's when you know the magic's going to happen because actually you've helped Take the conversation to a deeper level, help really surface some of the key challenges, the key issues that perhaps aren't normally or often aren't normally spoken out and yet still hold back the potential to really move forward together.

So that's when we know that the magic is happening in the room when we actually get an unexpected To the team, even to us, issue emerging and surfacing to then be able to help the team and facilitate and coach the team, the group, sometimes it happens on mass and big, big groups in the room, organizational events, but then to help them navigate through.

So they're building their own confidence and capability and skill set. and toolkit to then be able to navigate that again when it merges into the future and to be happier and more willing to encourage that different view, different feeling to come through because they've got the skills to, to meet it.

Anni Townend: You mentioned confidence there, Lucy, and I think that's one of the really important things that we help leaders and their teams do is they have the conversations facilitated by us in, in the room. But then they feel confident and encouraged to be able to have those conversations with each other when we're not in the room.

And that's one of our passions is that we are helping leaders be able to do the work they do with us when we're not there, that they have absolutely an appreciation of what it means to create safety, of what inclusive dialogue is, the language that we speak and how important language is. Language is our behavior.

And thinking about the mindset and the behavior that we bring. And it's, it's one of the reasons why, whilst being really passionate about diversity and inclusion, we talk about inclusion first and then diversity. And also why I think neither of us have ever done any inclusion and diversity training as such.

Because we do believe that creating an inclusive organization inclusive leadership is the responsibility of of the leaders and the wider leadership group in any organization. But also that bringing that is everybody's responsibility and and how we are with each other through the language that we use.

And often, we're unaware of the impact that the language we use can have, and so being mindful, we encourage people to speak from the I and address each other as you, in order that when they get to the we of who we are and what we're up to, that there's more power in that, because I've owned how I feel, What I think, what I'm wondering, and I'm speaking directly to you, and then when we do our best thinking together, we're absolutely having that conversation from the we.

So a small language change can have a huge impact on how people think. How they feel and indeed how they behave and respond. 

Natalie Shering: As I'm listening to you, I'm hearing that sense of we'll dance in the moment with our clients. We come with all of these capabilities and tools that we can bring alongside us. But actually what we're going to do is be with you in the moment to see what's emerging.

At least as you say, that's where the magic happens. Uh, you know, the, I know you said earlier that space of, you know, that growth happens at the edges. Um, but you're also modeling a way in which people can be. To learn to take it away with them. So it's not a dependent relationship. It's absolutely a creative relationship that imbues those that you're working with with the confidence, as you said, Annie, to be able to then step forward and say, so how does this live in our organization?

How do we nurture it and nourish it moving forward? And as I was preparing to be in conversation with you today, I was struck by the possibly quite quick Provocative question on the website. This is. Are you leading with curiosity, care and courage? And I wonder how that lands with leaders that you're meeting with?

Because, you know, curiosity? Yes. Courage. Probably. Yes. Care. Maybe not. So that might be a strange word to arrive into an organizational space. I'm wondering what your what your thoughts and experiences are in that space. 

Lucy Kidd: Well, interestingly, two stories come to mind of Yeah. Different clients that we've worked with.

So one arrived very intentionally with wanting to develop more care into the organization into their culture to create that safe space, a very diverse organization demographically. However, the difference in opinion, view, thought and feeling wasn't coming through. So very intentionally. Probably too much courage and curiosity was landing, you know, without the care that can feel quite aggressive, intimidating.

Um, so very much wanted to balance out the care. And increasingly we are noticing, we talk about, we partner with leaders, teams, and organizations to create a culture of care and connection, to drive results, to nourish the people and the performance and to do that hand in hand alongside each other. So that was music to our ears.

We, we know how to do that. Fantastic. And then a very different experience was an organization who were very caring, naturally very supportive, very encouraging, very coaching in their way of being with each other. And through the work we did with the executive team realized they actually need to bring more challenge, more courage and more straightforward conversations.

And so on, which again, music to our ears because the care was already there. Safe space felt supported and then needed that extra courage to to really be clear around what are the challenges they're facing into the organization post pandemic manufacturing retail organization needed to change things up to have some Harder conversations and they felt harder because of the care that I had for each other and the empathy that I had for each other.

So helping that team to be much clearer around the asks they had off of their leaders and the organization and to do that with the care. So it's always that balance between the curiosity, the courage and the care together. 

Anni Townend: And they really helped me. I think do work together, and whenever we speak with clients about the possibility of working with them or how we work, they're always, without exception, excited by the combination of curiosity, care, and courage.

Ooh, tell me more is often the response, and I think as Lucy said earlier, curiosity is an easy one to, to develop. that we know to bring curiosity, that it helps us to overcome judgment and making assumptions to, in fact, when we do do that, to think, I need to bring more curiosity here. I think one of the things We've mentioned COVID, the pandemic, lockdowns, that people did feel disconnected from each other in the care, that people have found it hard to care for each other online.

And we have worked online with teams and I hope very much helped them to experience being able to show what they real care when working online in a hybrid world and the courage that it takes to sometimes share how I'm feeling, but at the same time to all what I'm thinking, particularly if it's a different opinion.

But also the care in thinking about how this might be received by somebody else. So courage isn't about saying what I think, uh, without care. Courage comes with care even more so. and a curiosity, not only in why I'm thinking this, but also tell me more about why you're thinking that and together we can be more creative, we can be more commercial and we can bring commercial edge to our thinking as well as, as Lucy was saying, it's a combination of the human side with the, Uh, you know, driving results and the two go hand in hand and curiosity, care and courage of the mindset and behaviors that underpin our collaboration equation and the combination of them for it's easy to, to remember, unlike the seven C's curiosity, care and courage are easy to remember.

Where might I need to bring more courage? Where might I need to bring more care in my leadership? If I'm a chief exec. Where am I missing on, on that curiosity? Where could I bring more curiosity? How are my team doing? Are they bringing that rich combination of curiosity, care, and courage? 

Natalie Shering: Wonderful. And honey, you mentioned there the commercial age, and I'm curious, and I'm sure your listeners are curious to hear more about.

What are some of the outcomes that clients might expect to achieve with you? What's, what's the so what, if you like, of working with you? What have you noticed? I know Lucy, you started to share some stories there, but what would your clients say about you in terms of what they've been able to achieve?

that they wouldn't have been able to achieve without your, uh, partnership 

Anni Townend: in that they say straight away, we get more done together now than we did before. We get more done because our teams are working together more effectively. We have bigger conversations. We make time to think. We check in with each other so that we can be fully present.

We have shorter meetings. But stay focused and bring our energy to them. We work differently now than we did before, and we are enjoying bigger and better outcomes. Not necessarily just results, but bigger and better outcomes in innovation, in creativity, In imagining a future, which we all are doing right now, that is different and we do need to work differently and to take people with us and taking more people with us, helping more people to do their best work along the way.

Lucy Kidd: One of the biggest outcomes that gets fed back to us is thinking differently. So from the outset, so, um, I think two of the recent exec teams we've been working with have. Fed back, shared back that actually as a result of that, they call on each other much more than they ever did before, and that's meant that less challenges are bubbling up to the top of the organization to them be sorted out there because the team are meeting each other, they're checking in with each other, they're supporting and challenging each other and they're also showing resources.

So if they're facing into a problem or a challenge, yeah. They're actually calling on each other rather than the CEO for support and help with that. And that's been a huge mindset shift in terms of the way that team was, was being there for each other, really thinking about how they support the whole organization rather than just their department or function.

Um, and then more recently, an example where two functions felt they were competing for resources and through some of the conversations we're able to invite them to have and to explore and to really clarify themselves and then understand together their individual ambition and then to explore the opportunity for the collective ambition to find those edges together.

We often think about, you know, when we find those edges. We've got a choice. Do we defend those edges? Do we need to defend and protect them? Or can we actually blend and find the opportunity for collaboration rather than competition? And some of the results that are coming out of that again are sharing resources, really thinking about how can we drive results together rather than see them as being independently?

So things that you might think are happening out there anyway, and We know that they don't always because as human beings, we often feel we need to defend and protect our turf and our territory and it can feel quite competitive. So, and that's when we know again, it's going to be a sustainable change when that mindset has shifted to be thinking from me to way from the individual to the collective, especially at the top of the organization, that's going to make a huge difference, have a huge impact.

In terms of resources, in terms of the culture, in terms of what's possible for their teams around them, because if we're encouraging and rewarding collaboration at the top of the organization, then that's going to make a huge difference right across 

Natalie Shering: creating points of connection. That's what I'm hearing.

You talk about really those nodes that might start as quite, um, nascent, uh, but gradually as the culture changes, it becomes, hey. I'll just phone Julie or I'll just phone Bill. I'll not send them a Teams message, I'll just pick up the phone or maybe if we're in the office together. Yeah. Well, we'll go old fashioned then, I might just go and see them at their desk.

It's really creating those points of connection in which people can see And 

Anni Townend: that's why we talk about connection, contribution and collaboration. So, get the connection between people, human to human. Connect around what we really care about and what we're doing. Um, and then make a contribution to that through our thinking together, through doing our best thinking and having those discussions.

big conversations. And then that leads to collaboration, not just between us, but between us and the other people in the wider leadership team. And I think it's also interesting that we differentiate between collaboration, cooperation, coordination. All of them require trust, all of them are underpinned by connection and that we help people see that actually when you've got that really strong connection between people and people are contributing, we're able to trust each other to get on with things so we can coordinate, we can cooperate, that collaboration might not always be needed, but because we've got that connection and contribution and the trust between us.

Then any one of those is possible. 

Natalie Shering: I'm hearing you speak a lot about senior teams, chief executives. Is this for everyone? Absolutely. Or is it just for the senior, the top echelons of organisations? Can this work in that middle section as well? Where do you see its sweet spot perhaps? 

Anni Townend: I mean, we work mainly with senior leaders and their teams because we believe very much that they have the biggest influence on the culture of the, of the organization.

But everything that we do is absolutely something for everyone. Everyone is a culture creator, and we create that together, and it is led by. The people that, you know, in that leadership team, leadership does come with an extra commitment to thinking differently, to thinking big, not only about the vision and the strategy, but also about the culture.

And as senior leaders, we have a really important part to play in that. 

Lucy Kidd: And then alongside the. Executive team coaching and partnering we do. We've also developed now a series of workshops for each part of the collaboration equation that can be accessed across the organization to really encourage that mindset and behavior at all levels of the organization.

So really starting with that mindset of curiosity, care and courage, Creating points of connection, developing the confidence, the skills and the tools to really create psychological safety together, to practice inclusive dialogue together, recognizing what Annie said before around our words. really matter, and in fact they can often portray how we really feel, what we're really thinking.

So when we're thinking about inclusion and diversity, creating safety for each other, actually what we have to start with is a mindset of valuing each other's contribution. So we help to create that across the organization at any level in the organization. So really helping people meet each other human to human to then build and practice inclusive dialogue and inclusive ways of working together.

And then we build on the diversity of thoughts and feelings. So again, building the confidence and practicing, remembering to have curiosity, care and courage when we're experienced difference. when we're experiencing challenging views that are different to our own or different experiences, different ways of working.

So when we're developing diversity of thought and feeling in partnership with organizations, it's very much building up their toolkit, building up their and often co creating with them, their language of exploring difference in service of the results they're driving together. Um, and often tell me more, we'll be part of that toolkit practicing that.

Tell me. about that way of thinking, tell me where that thinking comes from, share with me your experience that shapes those ideas and thoughts and feelings because that feels quite different to my own. So encouraging those sorts of conversations again, whether it has real impact is right across the organization, um, project teams who perhaps wouldn't naturally think to invite each other to input and to challenge and to, you Check and test thoughts and ideas, um, to really drive that innovation.

And then the collaborative edge. What do we really mean by collaborative edge? It is about meeting each other at our edges and having the skills and knowing the behaviors that it's going to take to really encourage each other to bring your fullest contribution to finding that collaborative edge together.

Anni Townend: I was thinking then about inclusive dialogue and how we help people, because often that's the one that people say, well, what is that about? And we've mentioned the I, you, we, but I think there's another part of that, which is about acknowledging each other in small ways, smiling at each other, thanking each other, appreciating, you know, we've talked about difference and different thoughts and feelings.

Bye. But actually acknowledging when we have the same and being able to say, that's a really great idea. I really appreciate it when you do whatever it is. So inclusive dialogue is everybody being aware of the building each other's confidence and helping each other to do that through not only tell me more where I don't understand and I want to understand being curious, but also appreciating other.

We never work with senior leaders and their teams who say, We already do too much of that. There's too much appreciation of each other where there's not enough diversity of thought and feeling where people are struggling to express themselves differently. There is usually not enough real appreciation of each other's contribution of each other's strengths, of each other's ideas and thoughts.

And including them, actively seeking them. 

Natalie Shering: I'm going to come back to the point you just made a moment ago, Lucy, around, you know, project teams or otherwise. And if there's people out there, if listeners are listening to this thinking, Oh my goodness, this is me. My team don't appreciate each other enough. Or actually, I'm just terrified to have that conversation because I'm frightened I'm going to fall all over the top of it.

But my senior team are not bought in, but I maybe have a little bit of budget and I want to do something different. Is, are they an appropriate person to, to come to you? Or do we, do we need to have that catalyst from the most senior team to, to bring this work into and land into? What are your thoughts around that?

Lucy Kidd: I think that's where we're. Our vision for the workshops is, our sort of, our aiming intention for the workshops is to make it accessible at different levels of the organisation. We know that the biggest impact to really drive a culture change, firstly takes a long time, and secondly really needs that senior team, the leaders at the top of the organisation, to be living and breathing and practising it and communicating it and sharing it and encouraging it.

And often we've seen big change happen for the middle of organizations as well. So absolutely, those workshops are designed for that very purpose. Very much 

Natalie Shering: so. 

Lucy Kidd: And also for, we're due to go to the Diversity and Inclusion Global Leaders Forum next month, our second year running there. We're very excited about the opportunity.

And in that space, we meet a lot of diversity and inclusion leaders dedicated to Creating an inclusive culture where everyone has a place of belonging. Um, and this is part of what we can offer to, um, people in those roles is to help build, expand the toolkit and also sometimes to build their confidence.

Some of the conversations we were having at the forum last year was help. We know this is really important. The senior team were really bought into it. And what do I do? How can I really drive a culture change from that role of being the champion for diversity and inclusion without that extra backing, that extra support?

So absolutely, 

Natalie Shering: yeah, fantastic, fantastic. And really recognizing that often those, um, those individuals. have got their finger on the pulse of what's really happening in the guts of the organisation. Uh, you're right, the senior team are, are bought into the whole idea of it, but operationally, how's that, how's that arriving?

So it's wonderful to hear that this is, you know, this is a, a proper hands on, let's get in and about it. Get in and have the 

Lucy Kidd: conversation, I think that's really in a nutshell. For people who are feeling like that, perhaps feeling that they're in sort of a functional silo or, um, they're not tapping into the creativity and innovation that feels should be available to them or having tricky or rocky relationships or even experiencing conflict, um, within their team or across their teams to really what we what we offer through the work that we do with our collaborators such as yourself, Natalie, as well.

So it's not just the two of us. This is around how do we take this into organizations at a much larger scale to really encourage those conversations on a foundation of a mindset of curiosity, care and courage. And we can encourage that and help people practice that. At all levels of the organization, because they're the conversations that really matter that then do drive that change 

Natalie Shering: with that in mind, then what's the best way to get a hold of you to?

I mean, obviously, I know you well, so it's easy for me. I can send you a WhatsApp. But for listeners were thinking, Yeah, I'd really like to hear more about this. I want to start a conversation to make a connection. I've got the courage. I want to care a little bit. I want to care a little bit more. What's the best way for them to start it.

a conversation with both of you. Well, first of all, 

Anni Townend: we'd absolutely love to hear from anybody who would like a conversation, and we have a website, collaborationequation. com, and we can be contacted through that. We're both on LinkedIn, so myself as Annie Townend. And myself as Lucy Kidd. But also, if you're able, do come and visit us in May at the Diversity and Inclusion Global Forum.

And if you're listening to this after the forum, then it is an annual event, And, uh, we don't know yet whether we'll be there next year, but it's an event that we absolutely support and promote in all of our work. 

Natalie Shering: It's been such a pleasure to hear both of you bring not just your extensive knowledge but your warmth, uh, to, to this topic because it is, it's hard stuff, isn't it?

It's hard to create a mindset where maybe you feel attacked and you're not in the best space and bringing that new way of working collaboratively with colleagues is a, it's not always as easy. So it's wonderful to hear you nourishing that space so deeply. 

Lucy Kidd: It can feel hard and we've often talked about how part of what we do is to help leaders, teams get together.

Comfortable being uncomfortable because often that is where we find our edges, where we meet our edges, our own individual edges, where the growth happens, but also our edges with each other to make that shift in mindset and behavior. And then more recently, we've been saying, get curious being uncomfortable, because actually bringing that curiosity to yourself to each other when you're uncomfortable is firstly a great reminder of one of those bedrock mindset and behaviors, but also it stops you sort of resisting it or reacting to it, um, and helps you really explore and learn and notice and understand more together.

It becomes another point of connection, which is what we're trying to, to encourage and create. 

Anni Townend: Um, And I think another question on the back of that, which we haven't touched upon, is being curious around, who could help me with this? Who could I ask for help and, and also who could I help with whatever it is that they're grappling with.

So that's something we, we haven't touched on, but relates to what you've just said. You know, thinking about asking for help, not you're not on your own and we're here to help you as well. So do get in touch to have a conversation. 

Natalie Shering: Fantastic. You've preempted me, Lucy, and you've segued beautifully Annie into, um, maybe a final question for our listeners to, to get some juicy tidbits from you, um, what would be the one or two things that you might.

Encourage, uh, listeners to do, to bring more curiosity, care and courage. Maybe a top tip, uh, as we, as we come to an end here. What are your thoughts? 

Anni Townend: Make time between meetings to step outside or to step away from whatever it is you're doing to think and also make time to connect with somebody else and go out for a coffee with them, have a chat.

Lucy Kidd: Yeah, I think just that get curious. I remember years and years ago, Annie, before we started on this adventure together, you'd had a challenging time with a particular team and perhaps some resistance within the team and your coaching to them was get curious, get curious, notice, get curious, ask a question.

One of the biggest shifts and one of the biggest invitations to connection is asking questions. So, when you notice that it's feeling difficult, it's feeling challenging, you're feeling disconnected, ask a question of yourself, ask a question of others, find a point of connection. start with that. We do start with curiosity, start with the curiosity and then lean into the care and the courage.

Look for the collaboration. Annie, 

Natalie Shering: Lucy, it's been an absolute pleasure to be in conversation with you today. Thank you so much for telling us more about Collaboration Equation, making the invitation to listeners to reach out to you and start their curiosity wheels turning a little bit further. Thank you again.

And thank you for having me along to ask you these questions. It's been a great. Conversation. Thank you. Thank you for 

Anni Townend: being a brilliant collaborator and thank you for your curiosity in us and your care and your courage.