The Transformative Power of Travelling Alone - a conversation with Sue Cockell, Solo Traveller on a mission to help women in their mid-lives to enjoy the transformative power of travelling alone

Leaders in Conversation with Anni Townend is the podcast in which leaders share their life and leadership stories; the people, places and experiences that have shaped their values, beliefs, passion and purpose to encourage and inspire you to be even more confident and courageous in your own leadership.

If you are not already please do subscribe to the podcast, review and share it. Thank you!

About this Episode:

Today’s guest is Sue Cockell, Solo Traveller on a mission to help women in their mid-lives to enjoy the transformative power of travelling alone.

I had the joy of first meeting Sue when she was working at a pharmaceutical company where I was leading a leadership development programme. Sue was one of a small group of leaders with whom I worked over a period of time, supporting them in leading others.  As a group we got to know each other well, and during that time, some ten years ago, Sue lost her beloved husband. I remember Sue getting into solo travel, and helping me to feel confident about my youngest daughter travelling solo aged 18.

In our conversation Sue offers valuable insights into: 

• The transformative power of travel
• Solo travel for women in mid-life
• Embracing the power of “Yes!”

Sue’s Three Key Encouragements to Leaders :

1. It’s not what happens to you in life, but how you respond that makes you who you are
2. You grow the most outside your comfort zone. Embrace those opportunities to stretch it, even if it scares you
3. Your life experiences are what makes you unique, relatable & interesting. Never be afraid to share them as you never know where it may lead.

The best way to connect, follow and find out more about Sue:

LinkedIn: Sue Cockell 

Website: www.suewherewhywhat.com

YouTube: @SueWhereWhyWhat 

Instagram: @suewherewhywhat

About Sue Cockell:

Sue Cockell is a Transformative Travel Coach, Solo Female Travel Expert, Blogger and YouTuber. She began her solo travel journey after tragically losing her husband back in 2014. Travel allowed her to breathe, grieve, heal and finally find herself again. She has now visited over 80 countries, across 6 continents and through her work she aims to inspire other women over 40 to embrace the power of travelling alone too. 

If you have a deep desire to explore the world but feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of planning and preparation involved. Sue has designed a new course specifically for you: Find Your Way: Your Ultimate Guide to Starting Your Travel Journey. If you would like to learn more, then contact her now at sue@suewherewhywhat.com.

To listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me Anni Townend go to my website, www.annitownend.com

A big thank you to Coco O’Brien for the wonderful intro and outro music, for the lovely design, and for the excellent editing, sound production and marketing of the podcast.

To contact me Anni Townend do email me on anni@annitownend.com visit my website www.annitownend.com, subscribe to my newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn.  I look forward to connecting with you, thank you for listening.

Transcript

Anni Townend: Hello, welcome and welcome back to Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend. Leaders in Conversation is the podcast in which leaders share their life and leadership stories. The people, places and experiences that have shaped them, their values, beliefs, passion and purpose to encourage and to inspire you to be even more confident and courageous in your own leadership.

Today, I am delighted to be in conversation with Sue Cockell, solo traveler on a mission to help women in their mid lives to enjoy the transformative power of traveling alone. 

If you're not already, please do subscribe to the podcast, review and share it. Thank you. Welcome, Sue. 

Sue Cockell: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Anni Townend: I'm delighted, Sue, I'm reflecting that it's over 10 years ago that I had the joy of first meeting you when we were working together at a pharmaceutical company. I was leading a leadership development program, a small group of leaders. Developing leadership in others and we got to know each other very well and supported each other and challenged each other.  And I was reflecting that it is 10 years ago since you tragically lost your beloved husband during the time that we were working together. But also I remember you helping me feel more confident about my youngest daughter traveling solo on her own aged 18 and a short conversation we had during that time helped me to feel a bit more relaxed about her doing that.

Today you're going to talk more and offer valuable insights into the transformative power of travel, of solo travel for women, especially in midlife.

So let's make a start, Sue with you, about who you are, and who are the people, places, and experiences, and the key turning points, that have shaped you, your values, your beliefs, your passion and purpose, and made you the amazing leader, woman, solo traveler that you are today.

Sue Cockell: Thank you, Anni. What an introduction. Wow. It's actually interesting that you introduced me as someone who helped you to come to terms or to be more relaxed about your daughter traveling on her own. Because in answer to your question, one of my main people in my life was my mum.

And one of my big experiences that made me passionate about travel and falling in love with travel was back when I was 22. I wanted to travel but I had no idea where I wanted to go or what I wanted to do. And Somehow I booked a three month overland trip around Central and Eastern Africa.

I'd never thought of Africa, I'd never considered it. It had never been somewhere that was particularly on my list. But in those days, there was no internet. There was none of that connectivity. And nowhere to look up things really other than buying a guidebook.

And I ended up in a travel agent’s and I booked three months on a truck with 13 other people traveling from Nairobi in Kenya to Harare in Zimbabwe. And it was amazing. I came back home from that trip to London, visiting a whole load of travel agents with the announcement.

Hey mom, I'm going to Africa. So excited. And my mom, she didn't say, don't go, she just said, okay, dear. That's fine. And I think just with that she didn't tell me not to go. She didn't try and discourage me. She didn't even tell me she was worried. And it's not until I've reflected a little bit on that trip that I recognize how brave she was.

Because I often hear, Oh, you're so brave to go traveling and that takes a lot of courage and all of this, but actually when you're the person who's away, you have control. You know when you feel safe, you know what you're doing is safe. You know where you are and what your situation is.

But for those who we leave back home, they know nothing. And in those days there weren't any mobile phones. It was just a matter of. sending postcards, which was really helpful. So mum knew six weeks previously I'd been safe. I think her influence on me was very much about it's not necessarily about your experiences that can create the influence on others it's helping them to have their own experiences. And it's believing in them that they will come back and they'll come back safe and sound because they'll make the right decisions because that's what you've taught them 

Anni Townend: and there are so many parallels with leadership enabling people to have their own experience, believing in them, trusting them that they will be safe and having the courage to let go and to let them go.

And I reflect on my experience of supporting my daughter in traveling on her own, it being something that I would have liked to have done when I was 18 and didn't do, probably because I felt frightened of it. I did short trips, but nothing like the big trip that you did aged 22 and the big trip that she did.

And of course, she did have a mobile phone. Having said that, it didn't work everywhere. 

Sue Cockell: No, of course it doesn't. 

Anni Townend: It doesn't. So even though there is that connectivity, the possibility of it, it can be even more alarming when that isn't there because we've got so used to being able to connect and to be able to have that to hand and to feel reassured and indeed to have sometimes a false sense of security.

But I do look back and think that I had to be brave. I didn't want to hold her back. I didn't want her to feel that I was scared for her. And at the same time, I remember her walking through and arriving in arrivals at Heathrow. And even now as I remember that moment, the emotion that flooded through me and holding her for the first time in months was phenomenal, a phenomenal relief. There was something about holding myself in suspense all the time that she was away. 

What was it that inspired you, motivated I want to go traveling? 

Sue Cockell: It's really interesting because there's absolutely nothing in my early life that had anything to do with travel.

We'd look forward to as a family was that two week trip together and they were initially two weeks in the Isle of Wight, always going back to the same place.

And then we moved on to Devon, and then we moved on to Wales. And then the world opened up and we went overseas to France. So my parents were never major travelers and my sister, interestingly enough lives in Australia, but she's a real homebody.

So I have no idea where it came from. It was a lot of influence of other people in my life, doing my A level geography and learning about all of these other lands and amazing things to see. And then going to university and meeting people who had taken a year out and gone traveling, which I had never done before.

And I think it was just hearing about all of these interesting places. And I think that coupled with back in those days when I went to Africa, a sense of naivety. That not really understanding how different the world was in other places and through other people's lenses and perspectives and different cultures.

We weren't exposed to that in the same way that we are nowadays. And it just fueled my wanderlust. 

Anni Townend: How did you nourish and fuel this wanderlust? 

Sue Cockell: It's interesting because kind of part of my whole thing is every footstep leaves a trace. So wherever you go, the more you share your experience, the more you open up for other people. And so on that trip in Africa, I was the youngest person there, by a little way.

A lot of the guys on the trip were from Australia and New Zealand, and this was like the end of their big year long or more exploration of Europe. And they were on their way home. So whereas a lot of them had travelled on their own, Africa was probably one step too far understandably so, and therefore they wanted to join a tour.

So I met all these people, I lived with them for three months, I heard about all of these experiences. And it opened up the possibilities and it opened up my eyes to all of these other places. So one thing I did come back from there believing was that I needed a proper job. I'd saved for Africa doing bar work, shop work, everything that I needed to get enough money to go.

But I needed a proper job and that's where I started a career in pharmaceutical sales. And then my goal was to get my qualification, so that it would be a lot easier for me to go away and then come back and find another job. So I did exactly that and then after I got my qualification, I took 18 months off. I spent a month going around Europe. On my own this time. And then I went to Australia where I stayed on and off with my sister. And then probably one of the biggest things for me was I came home via Indonesia.

So I spent two months on my own traveling through Indonesia, which was probably where I really fell in love with solo travel. I was terrified every step.

Anni Townend: Yes I can imagine. So what was it about solo travel and being in Indonesia that you fell in love with and where you discovered the transformative power of solo travel?

Sue Cockell: I think it's because, say, when I was in Europe, even though I didn't speak the languages, I'm not a linguist by any stretch, and I spent two months in Italy, not really speaking Italian at all. But Even though all of our cultures are slightly different, there's a similarity, there's a bond between us as Europeans.

And the same can be said for Australia. But Indonesia, everything was different. And I was out of my comfort zone from day one. I was really nervous when I arrived and I spent a week in Bali and then I just went off. And get getting the buses and traveling alone and got myself into situations and got myself back out of them again.

And I think in me that fueled a real sense of self belief that I was making the right decisions. I didn't have any responsibility for anybody else. So any decisions were on me. It gives you a whole new sense of responsibility. It gave me self belief. It made me really think that I could do anything I really wanted to do.

I just had to put my mind to it and I was capable of it. And that's quite a powerful message to carry with you because I came back feeling that I could take on the world. A lot of the time we have safety in not standing out and disappearing in blending in to our environment and our surroundings.

And in Indonesia, I did not blend in at all. Everybody was staring at me constantly. People were watching me to see how I was responding to things. It's like everything I wanted to do was a challenge and it was a challenge for me, for myself and one that I had to overcome.

And I did. And I absolutely thrived in the environment and that fueled me for future travels. 

Anni Townend: That's so brilliant to hear. And again, the transformative power of being on your own and of that self belief that came out of that experience. It can feel lonely, leaders feel on their own, and their self belief can be challenged, it can be very uncomfortable, and something else you said made me draw a parallel between traveling solo and leadership, that everybody is watching you, watching how you're responding, how you connect with them or don't connect with them, and non-verbally the language matters more than the language, more than anything. Because we may not speak the same language, as in understand the content of everything, but we are reading the room, reading the people. You were being read by people, your response to them and having to respond in a different way while standing out and being very visible as well.

Sue Cockell: And there is a responsibility around that of people who come behind you people who follow in your footsteps.

Anni Townend: Pave the way. 

Sue Cockell: Absolutely, yeah. Which is all important. 

Anni Townend: That's a lovely way of thinking about it, isn't it?

You're opening doors as people did on your very first trip for you. You suddenly heard about these travels that other people had enjoyed and that opened the doors for you and you're paving the way and your behavior, your response, the reputation that you have amongst the people that you're traveling in their community through their country will pave the way for the people who follow. They will remember that lovely woman who came. 

Sue Cockell: Yeah, totally. I'm a huge believer that through my travels, one of the biggest things I've learnt is that we are way more similar than we are different.

And there are so many ways that you can connect that have nothing to do with language. And I'm a big one for, I ask a lot of questions of the people that I meet about where to go, about where they've been, about what to do about everything, so that I can have a little bit of their best experiences as well.

Anni Townend: The number one distinguishing feature of a great leader from a good leader is that they are passionately curious not just in anything, but that they're passionately curious in people. And so you're asking questions is demonstrating that leadership quality and behavior and something that Lucy Kidd and I, with whom I co founded Collaboration Equation, we talk a lot about the three mindset and behaviors of curiosity, care and courage. And it seems to me that you embody all three of these in how you live and lead and travel. And it's something that you're looking to share particularly with women in their midlife. It would be great to hear about why women in their midlife, and how you came to that and the transformative power of travel in particular during a very sad time 10 years ago.

Sue Cockell: I guess now's the best time to talk about Terry and about my experiences effectively after coming back from Indonesia, I had plans to work for three months to then give everything up, travel the world, go to India, that was my next plan. And within six months I'd met Terry and I stayed within that organization where I met you for 18 very happy years and in a relationship with him for 18 very happy years. So that's another part of my life, and he was my husband, but he was also my best friend and he was my very faithful traveling companion. 

And even 25 days, a year of holiday we maxed every single one of them and we had a lot of very fun adventures together. But then unfortunately back in 2014, he went in for heart surgery. And he never came back to me. And how I've developed my way of explaining that to people. If you haven't experienced that, and I very much hope the vast majority of people never get to experience something like that. 

It's like everything that you know about your life and everything that you expect to happen in your future just disappears. It's no longer there and it's dealing with the loss of the person you loved. But it's also every single thing in your life changes as a result. And once I started to come out of the fog, I also realized that I felt lost and I was very happy as Sue. And I feel that my experiences traveling really helped me to find myself back when I was 22 and onwards. And then I met Terry and I became part of this amazing couple that was Sue and Terry and had some fantastic times as a couple.

But then, when you've been that for 18 years I didn't really know who I was anymore. And being just Sue, when you're in your twenties, and being just Sue. I'm not saying that in a, it's just me. I'm not good enough. I am everything I need. I'm enough. But being just Sue when you're in your mid forties is a very different prospect.

And I think what I've discovered is we get to a certain age and everybody is going through something. Everybody's going through something, whether it's challenges in a relationship, it's loss of a loved one. It's health challenges or triumphs. It's like everybody is dealing with something.

And everybody deals with things in different ways. I was very lucky I had friends and family who stepped in and knowing my passion for travel that first year I got a lot of invites, Sue, would you like to come to Borneo to see orangutans? Sue, would you like to go skiing in Canada?

Sue, let's go island hopping in Greece together. And I went on all of these trips and they were amazing with my friends and it gave me the opportunity within that first year to break up the year. So I'd be at home dealing with stuff for six weeks and then I'd be away seeing these incredible places. 

And being away that kind of gave me a little bit of respite because I think I've also come to this concept that home is a very important thing 

But when the person that you created that life with is no longer there, it's just a place full of memories. And it was like, the loneliness was very intense and the silence screams at you from every corner. And so going away became my way of pretending life was normal almost.

It's those experiences allow you a fresh head space and changing your environment helps you to change in what's happening within you. So that's how I got through my first year. And then I came to the end of that first year and I thought okay, I've got to be realistic. I am on my own.

There's no getting away from that. No matter how much people want to be there and support me, I am on my own. There will come a time when I'm not uppermost in everyone's mind. And the invites will start to dry up and that's fine. That's fair enough. But also if I carry on living like that I will be doing what other people want to do all the time and not necessarily what I want to do.

And so from there, I wrote a list of things in my life that I wanted to do or wanted to achieve, and that's all I called it, I now call it my life list, because it's a list that has helped to bring me back to life.

And it became my roadmap for the next five years of places I wanted to go, things I wanted to do. 117 of them, still not got through them all. 

There are things that go off the list for whatever reason, and there are things that become a bigger priority. So I refreshed it. So I think it's about 90 now. Not that I've only done 20 of them. I've done a lot more than that, but things have added. Things have gone. So I followed my life list and traveling alone gave me the freedom to be able to do that.

And I think that's the thing. I wasn't waiting around for someone. I wasn't in negotiations or trying to fit anyone else around that. It was my list of how I was going to bring myself back to life, taking responsibility again. And it really allowed me to breathe and the travel allowed me to grieve.

And it allowed me to heal and it also allowed me to find myself again. And it was a path that I'd taken earlier. It sounds like such a cliche, but it's so true. Back in my twenties, I found myself traveling and I became the person who could do the job and have the career that I had.

And this, it helped me find myself again of who I was now I was on my own in my mid forties, 

Anni Townend: I love that it gave you the transformative power to breathe again to live again and to grieve all at the same time, that live, breathe, grieve, and that traveling solo helped you to do all three of those things.

And then you've really set about drawing on that experience and all that you learned in helping women who are at a similar stage in their lives for whatever reason, not necessarily because of loss, but maybe loss of another sort. So I'm imagining but possibly a loss of self, not really. knowing who I am where am I going, the concept of a life list might seem impossible at the beginning of that journey. And you help women in midlife do just that. 

Sue Cockell: Yes, absolutely. I think travel is a great time for mindfulness and I can spend hours sitting, contemplating, just watching people, but watching out of the window and I think public transport is a great way to understand cultures and how people relate to each other and all of that kind of thing.

I was in a bus in Bolivia and I just came up with this idea that I can't be the only person. Who, or the only woman who is in midlife, who feels they have got to this, whether it's circumstances, external factors or internal factors or however, you get to a point in your life where you're either, this isn't what I was expecting, I didn't necessarily want to be here, or all of those other things that we've talked about, they get you at a crossroads in your life where you want to effect a change.

 And I was conscious that my experiences when I was younger had been invaluable to me taking the opportunity and I guess grasping it with both hands to go on my own without the fear probably and potentially could have been so much greater. When you get to midlife because there are all sorts of experiences that we've had that create fear where we never had it when we were younger.

 I decided to start writing a blog. And for my blog, I started doing videos on YouTube and quite enjoyed doing that. And when we worked together I had many years as a coach in the corporate world Coach, leader, manager and I found this qualification of travel coaching, which seemed to be shouting at me from all angles.

I got certified as a travel coach and now I'm building a business around helping other women in midlife to discover travel and to discover themselves. While traveling and have the confidence to do it. 

Anni Townend: Wonderful. And along the way, you've learned about embracing the power of Yes. Which again, I'm imagining is something that you are encouraging women in midlife to be open to embracing the power of Yes.

Sue Cockell: I had a situation quite a few years ago now. I live in a terraced house and my neighbours came and they said you know how you're never here? Why don't you go away for six months?

While we're having our house renovated, it would be amazing if we could project manage our house from your house, which is two doors down. So if you were to go away, we'll rent your house from you. Okay. I'll do that. So I went to my list. And somewhere an area that I'd never been to, and I wanted to explore more was the Caribbean.

So I decided I'd go to the Caribbean for six months. I got a flight into the Dominican Republic because it was cheap, because there's a lot of package holidays, it was cheaper to fly into Dominican Republic and then out again from Dominican Republic six months later. And in between then I had the concept that I would go wherever the wind took me.

I had a few things planned. When I was in the Dominican Republic, I started learning Spanish because that had been on my list. And so I decided to do a Spanish course. And I also felt I needed a little bit of a refresh. So I joined a retreat like a health and fitness retreat for a week.

So they were literally the only things I had planned apart from my flight back. And so I literally did go wherever the wind took me and I visited numerous different countries and everywhere I was, I met other people and I had this whole thing where people would suggest things to me or I'd befriend someone who was going somewhere and they're like, do you fancy coming too?

Yes, I will. And so I kind of weaved my way and it sounds like I can honestly say it was not all everything that dreams are made of. And the Caribbean isn't all big resorts and beautiful luxury. That wasn't how I was traveling. But it just created these whole new opportunities, some of which were actually quite scary.

But all of them were amazing and I got so much out of all of them. So for example, I started off in Costa Rica after the Dominican Republic. And that's where I traveled on my own for a bit. And I also joined a tour because I wanted to do stuff like whitewater rafting and canyoning, and it's a big place and zip lining.

And those things aren't so much fun on your own so I joined a tour for that I then ended up in the US Virgin Islands where I lived on a yacht and that is definitely not as glamorous as it sounds because I couldn't sail it, but I promised to get the boat ready for a friend to take on a sailing regatta.

So I did that. There I met a couple who had lost their boat in a previous hurricane and we got into a conversation and they're like, where are you going this Easter? I'm staying on the boat and they said we don't have a boat. We'd normally go to the British Virgin Islands.

And I said I have a boat, but I can't sail it. And so the next thing, the day after they got on my boat and the three of us sailed around the British Virgin Islands for three days. 

Anni Townend: Wonderful. So it's a real sense of you being absolutely open to the power of yes and being empowered by that, but also a very conscious choice to say yes to things.

And I think that therein lies another parallel with leadership is not only looking to say yes and exploring the possibility, but also the sense of choice. That you had a choice in any of those situations, you could have said, no to your neighbors and you said yes.

And you said yes to the couple who didn't have a boat. You had a boat, they sailed and away you went, which is also very exciting. 

Sue Cockell: It was an amazing, six months and I've made a lot of friends in that six months who I'm still in contact with and I've stayed with them.

They've stayed with me. I've been on holidays with them since. 

Anni Townend: Amazing. 

Sue Cockell: Yeah. It's a very special time for me. 

Anni Townend: And Sue, as we come towards the end of our conversation, more recently, I know that you have met somebody, so that's been transformative. And it would be very lovely to hear a little bit about that, of meeting.

Sue Cockell: Meeting Larry. Yes. It's one of those things, when I lost Terry, for me, it was very important to get used to being on my own and be comfortable to be on my own. And that has been something that I've been exploring and working on for the last 10 years. But that's to say I also went on some dating apps and met quite a few people and had a few fun nights out and then I saw his profile and I'd go on and off them because I think They have a lot of faults, the dating apps, and it's a hard road to walk and I went back on and on the first day I saw his profile and he wanted to meet the woman who he wants to spend the rest of his life with.

And all of these fantasies about who this woman was. And my first thought was that's not me. Cause I'm not actually looking for anybody. But we met, we went on a couple of dates and next thing you knew, all of a sudden I was starting to think maybe this relationship thing is a thing.

Maybe I should explore it a little bit more. Yeah. And here we are. I'm one year into having met him. I got engaged in summer. Yeah I'm very, very happy. Thank you. 

Anni Townend: I'm so happy, Sue. I'm so delighted and what a lovely place to arrive at in our conversation today.

 Before I ask you one final question, what are your three key encouragements to leaders? Not just to women in midlife. But to leaders, to listeners of our conversation. 

Sue Cockell: My first is it's not what happens to you in life, but it's how you respond that makes you who you are. Choose your attitude and I think that to me has been fundamental for me, is it's, you can choose how you respond to things once everything's settled down, and that to me is all important. It's not what happens to you, it's how you respond that's most important. 

The second one is the classic line of you grow the most outside your comfort zone. Embrace opportunities to stretch your comfort zone. Even if it scares you and I have done plenty of that. I've actually realized recently that I thrive slightly outside my comfort zone.

And that's where I have the best experiences and that's where I grow the most. And also the fact that your life experiences are what makes you unique. It makes you relatable and it makes you interesting. So never stop sharing those. I went through a phase after I just lost Terry, where I was frightened to get into conversations because I didn't want the emotion to come through.

And I thought I'd ruin people's holidays and the irrational thoughts that you have. But what I've discovered on my travels is that the more I share what's happened to me, the more connections I make and the stronger connections I make with people and the bigger conversations that you have and the bigger connections that you make.

Shares something of your life and you never know who you might be sharing with and. how much of that they really need to hear. 

Anni Townend: Brilliant, Sue. And thank you for sharing so much of your life in our conversation today. And we don't know who is listening or who is going to hear from you, from our conversation, from your sharing.

And so what a lovely gift to everybody who's listening. Thank you for sharing. And one final question for you, who as a result of our conversation today, are you going to go and have a conversation with, and what will it be about? 

Sue Cockell: I actually have already in my diary a conversation with a couple of friends this afternoon.

 So I'm definitely going to be talking to them about this, amazing women, both of them. But I think the biggest thing I've taken from our conversation today is having had this conversation and having reflected on your questions before we started talking as well, I just realized how many parallels there are and how many lessons they can be learnt from experiencing life that you can then take into your leadership and you can take into your work conversations and everything that's come from this conversation. I've loved it. 

Anni Townend: I've loved it too. How best for people to connect, follow and find you for more conversations with you or to have some transformative travel coaching with you.

Sue Cockell: Well, I like to think I'm everywhere. So if you're on LinkedIn, then I'm Sue Cockell. But if you are connecting on any other platform, or you want to go to my blog or my YouTube channel, everywhere else, I'm Suewherewhywhat. Which people find hard to remember. Sue, where do you go? Why do you go there? What do you do when you're there? Sue, where, why, what? 

Anni Townend: Brilliant. Thank you, Sue. And thank you so much for our inspiring conversation today. 

Sue Cockell: Thank you, Anni. Thank you for inviting me. 

Anni Townend: And thank you to you, the listener as well. If you'd like to listen to other Leaders in Conversation with me, Anni Townend, do go to my website, AnniTownend.com. 

A big thank you to Coco O'Brien for the wonderful intro and outro music, for the lovely design, the excellent editing, sound production and marketing of the podcast. 

If you'd like to contact me directly, please do so via my email, anni@ AnniTownend.com. Visit my website, follow me on LinkedIn, subscribe to my newsletter. 

I look forward to connecting with you. Thank you for listening, please share it, review it and pass it on. Thank you. 

Thank you, Sue. 

Sue Cockell: Thank you.